Turkey, grey water tanks here we go again

[macd]

Thanks Satsuma, as stated its good to see a well balanced view.
I would still be interested in finding out just what equipment is expected. there seem to be ( at least) 2 issues, one is having the legally required gear fitted and the other is using it correctly.

So far as I know there's no "legally required gear", just a ban on discharging into the sea. Granted, in most cases the effect may be much the same, but there have been plenty of posts on here of porta-loos being used instead of black water tanks.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks Satsuma, as stated its good to see a well balanced view.
I would still be interested in finding out just what equipment is expected. there seem to be ( at least) 2 issues, one is having the legally required gear fitted and the other is using it correctly.

It really would make sense to fit a toilet holding tank. You will shortly be in an area where it is common to anchor in shallow tideless bays along with lots of other people and it would be very antisocial to discharge sewage directly into the sea. It does not need to be huge - indeed it is impossible in small boats like yours to find room for anything above 50-60 litres, but that is adequate for a couple of days at least and you can discharge when on passage. It is very easy to use onshore facilities in ports.

 

[charles_reed]

+1

It is also based on an interpretation by one official in one location and as we all know in this part of the world every official is a law unto himself.How responsible organisations such as CA can apparently make such definitive statements relative to a wholed country based on such flimsy evidence does makes me wonder .As far as I am aware the law relating to owner skippers licences has not changed for some time, and the requirement still is to have the qualifications required by the country of your boats registration, which in the case of the UK is none. I agree its better to have something if challenged but how often is that.

Who suggested this was an "official" Cruising Association statement.
Unless you can prove it "Akaya" I'd be grateful if you'd amend your statement.

 

[Squeaky]

Who suggested this was an "official" Cruising Association statement.
Unless you can prove it "Akaya" I'd be grateful if you'd amend your statement.

Good morning:

I certainly got the impression that the Cruising Association were responsible for the details in article published by Moatboat Monthly although it is very likely that some reporter got the wrong end of the stick and didn't spend much time checking the details.

I doubt that the CA had anything to do with the report but I suggest we should be "attacking" Motoboat Monthly for publishing a report that is inaccurate and "scaremongering" not Akaya.

Had I wished to comment on the article I am fairly sure that I would have posted something very similar to that which Akaya posted including directing the blame to the CA as the article gives the impression they are behind the report.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[OldBawley]

It really would make sense to fit a toilet holding tank. You will shortly be in an area where it is common to anchor in shallow tideless bays along with lots of other people .

We are liveaboards on a very small boat. 27 feet waterline. The boat is a classic, build 1945 to the lines of a Bawley fishing boat, therefore a lot more beam than same length yachts.
In 1995 a subsidy was given by the Dutch government for installing a black water tank.
I bought and had subsidised a few of them ( I was ship chandler then ) and fitted an 25 l round the toilet tank to our toilet. It is small but sufficient for bathing bays and takes no room at all.
I had never pumped it out at a marina, dumped at sea.

Grey water storage on a liveaboard boat is hard to do but is also absurd. Some spaghetti or potato cooking water will do no harm, biodegradable soap can be used.

We ware in Turkey Fethiye where the whole blue card scam started. To me the regulation would make sense if it was enforced. It is not. Just a scam to build a company and please some well earning top men. It is also a stick to hit if you annoy someone with connections. ( I made a post about an example years ago. )
Btw, a porta potti or other non through hull toilet will not prevent you from been fined for not having a Blue card AND regular pump out´s. Even having no toilet at all is no excuse when some bad mood uniformed is ordered by some high up to have your a** kicked.
So even having no toilet at all, you still need a Blue card and registred pump out´s. ( which is no problem. )

We wintered in the Fethiye_ Göcek bays for 10 years. I noticed that the huge engines of gullets and super mobo´s are a far bigger polluter than some pee. After winter, ( which was then virtually yacht free ) when the first mobo´s arrived in the bays, I noticed a very thin film of oil on the water. Snorkelling I could even taste it. That film kills more life than grey water. If one burns 800 litres of diesel an hour or 400 litres a day for the generators lying at anchor, a whole lot of tar and oil and other nasty stuff is emulsified in the seawater.

Last week a small motor yacht moored next to me. Same length as my sail boat, the owner told me that thing burned 140 litres of diesel an hour. The same as I use in one year. And I move a lot. He had his generator on all day, those yachts can´t function without them. The exhaust is taken just under water to dampen the noise. Now that is pollution.

 

[jimbaerselman]

The Cruising Association gives up to date and accurate advice to its members through the member pages of our web site. In the case of Turkey, this includes details of the waste disposal regulations, and how they are applied. A CA point of view has been asked for. I'll quote in reply to each point made in the original post.

Boats cruising in Turkish waters could face fines and even impounding if they are spotted dumping grey water

It is important to recognise that, although the authorities are not applying the full regulations at this time vessel judged to be polluting the sea in Turkish waters will incur fines, possibly heavy. Coastguards and Harbour Masters will certainly act if they witness the discharge of foul or soapy water or debris or have it reported to them, as they are likely to in other countries.

No mention of "impounding"

Motorboaters cruising in Turkish waters without grey water tanks run the risk of a fine or having their vessel impounded, it has been confirmed.

Use a holding tank for Black Water, especially in enclosed bays, beaches and swimming areas. Wipe cooking utensils, etc. clean before washing; use soaps and detergents in the smallest quantities practical; ideally use environmentally friendly products; and in very sensitive areas consider storing Grey Water in the holding tank via the toilet.

No mention of a need to fit a grey water tank.

Following numerous reports of a crackdown on grey waste dumping off the coast of Turkey, the Cruising Association has contacted the local authorities.

The CA have been giving the advice quoted above for many years. Yes, following a phone call from MBY, CA checked contacts to ensure nothing had changed, and quoted elements of the response.

Batur Kumbaki, a Turkish government officer based at Didim Marina, told the organisation that fines of around $1,000 (£590) could be levied against offending boatowners.

"Offending boat owners" being those who discharge, although that's not clear from the context above. Note that "impounding" is not included.

Many countries have outlawed the dumping of black water to avoid sewage contamination, but the Turkish ruling means that boats can no longer dispose of washing-up, shower and deck cleaning water directly into the sea.

News to MBY maybe, but not to anyone familiar with Turkish cruising since 1984 or earlier

A spokeswoman for Didim Marina added that the law has been in force for a year, but prosecution has only just begun, with spotter planes being sent out to catch offenders.

I don't know who spoke with Didim marina, but the spokeswoman is not well informed.

The Cruising Association also sought clarification on the licence requirements for Turkish waters.

Authorities confirmed that skippers must hold an Amateur Seaman's Certificate or an International Certificate of Competence, or face a similarly large fine.

There may have been changes in the requirements for Turkish registered boats, but the CA web site has been clear on this matter for a few years:

Ship's papers (accepted in the English language) which should remain on board whilst the vessel is in Turkey are listed below. The first two items will definitely be asked for on entry/exit and possibly the others. Originals are required but it is recommended copies are also held on board and at home:

(1) UK Ship Register Part l or Part lll (SSR) equally acceptable, or the equivalent.
(2) Proof of Insurance with adequate cruising limits and 3rd party cover.
(3) A Certificate of Competence for the captain (RYA ICC is fine)
(4) Ship Radio licence and Radio Telephone Certificate of competence for one crew member.

I realise that sailoboutvic reported all of this in good faith. He's just repeating published words. What is clear is that the message became severely mangled on the route from CA advice to members, to words on the MBY page.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Jim
Just for the records , I wasn't having a go at the CA , more making a point that once again grey water tanks have being highlighted again ,
Personal I can't understand these country's Greece ,Turkey Croatia Spain so on and so on , that want the boats for our cash and help there economy but keep finding way to making problems for us , which in the long run discourages some people going there .
I see now Croatia is being a pain about VAT invoice and want you to have a T2L . Although we personally haven't had any problem so far .
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[akyaka]

jimbaerselman there is an even more emphatic article in PBO which would suggest apparently (note the use of the word "apparently" again Charles Reed) that statements are emanating from the CA and then when checking they are dependent upon one regional source. It may be and probably is sloppy journalism but the impression coming over is that they are statements of facts coming from the CA as a body and there are no formal denials by the Association themselves, nor do they seem to be seeking corrections on the offending websites for what is a sensitive matter- it has been some 2 weeks.

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/536735/sailors-in-turkey-now-face-fines

 

[macd]

+1 with akyaka.
The PBO web article prompted my post #13. At the time I assumed the words were the work of some PBO hack, but the article carries the byline of "Beryl Chalmers - Cruising Association", and the CA's own site describes her as "PR/Publicity Officer". There are no other credits so it looks likely that the statements do come direct from the CA.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Mac, Akyaka

Thanks for your feedback and links. Very helpful.

Beryl is whooping it up at a rainy yachting exhibition in Ireland, so she's been out of touch. She was already aware there had been a mistake, and when back planned to contact PBO to check exactly how it occurred, and arrange any corrections needed. "Lesson learnt . . . " she dryly said to me.

 

[Dig]

Has any one been fined or had there boat ceased for these gray tank problems and overboard discharge.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Speaking from my experience running charter fleets in Turkey, fines for "pollution" were levied on our boats 2 or 3 times a year over a period of 15 years. Typical infringements were: showering on deck with soap bubbles going into the water, under-water discharge from shower or washing up creating a grey cloud and bubbles; oily sheen on the water after washing a diesel spillage off deck. Typical fines were from £100 equivalent to £400.

There was never any question of boat seizure unless the fines weren't paid, when the boat would not have been permitted to sail until a court hearing had been completed. Guess why we always paid the fines . . .

 

[Dig]

Thanks very much some real facts at last,so a good money spinner for the environment agency and coast guard as i am sure all boats will be guilty of doing this at some point.

 

[pathfinderstu]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I am pretty sure anyone can have tanks fitted to their boat, space providing of course, and sizes limited to the effect on stability etc. I do not personally know of any leisure boats in Turkey that have them fitted under 12m! However I do know that the "regulations" in Turkey are there for good intention if a little ill-conceived. I have recently delivered boats to the Turkish Coast Guard that have no holding tanks whatsoever, but they do have a small chemical treatment plant that allows direct discharge!

The regulations are not there to keep people away from Turkey, and as far as I know the regulations are there for all boats, though rarely if ever enforced (I have never heard of any fines, charges or arrests because of non-compliance). Please understand that in Turkey it is almost a democratic right to choose not to follow regulations! Providing people are "generally" doing what they should, there is often no concern about small transgressions, and interpretation of any regulation is variable to say the least! Indeed I know of one Coast Guard officer, who concluded that the blue card is only for Turkish Flagged vessels so not to worry!

I have a blue card (3 years now), and when getting it, was asked what size is the grey tank - Answered "I don't have a grey tank" Reply, "that's OK". In the 3 years of having the blue card I have never used it. It is suggested that I should have sea water pumped out if need be, just to show something on the card. I am not charged for pumping out so I will take them up on their offer.

In reality, the Turkish Coast Guard spend most of their time eating, drinking Cay, or checking the validity of Turkish flagged boats (mostly to make sure they are not chartering if they don't have a license!). They might stray occassionally onto foreign flagged vessels, especially if they see an attractive, scantily clad woman on board, but unless you are stupid enough to discharge anything inside a marina, bay, or close to shore you are not likely to even be challenged. As already mentioned make sure your courtesy flag is in good condition, neither torn nor too faded!
Some of the Coast Guard actually board foreign vessels just to practice their English so don't be too surprised!

Turkish culture exists and thrives on common courtesy, politeness and respect irrespective of law or regulation, but not the same measures that you may be used to in other countries. Personal space, both physically and through personal questions may seem intrusive to some, but it is normal here to take an interest in people around you! Driving the wrong way up a dual carraigeway is shocking and dangerous but here it is usually the shortest route, so may be overlooked. Red traffic lights are usually observed but if nothing else is coming, why wait! But "turning a blind eye" is not exclusively a Turkish thing, and I know of several rural areas in the UK where drink driving is ignored (or rather, not actively policed) because there is no public transport and the pubs would not survive otherwise.

As far as I can tell, the divergent interpretations in Turkey are no different to what you may experience in Greece with varying enforcement or not of DEKPAs, harbour fees or any other "regulation" that locals choose to ignore.

It is understandable that many people will not be comfortable with a culture that does not strictly observe the rules!, but I find it pleasant, refreshing and attractive to still have a significant level of freedom of choice in life, usually where it does not impact on others!

Excellent post Satsuma. you really seem to have captured the essence of the situation and also given a very good verbal insight into the local culture. Do you mind if I share your post to a Facebook group I manage called Everything Nautical Turkey. This topic is currently being discussed and your explanations are the best I have read so far. Please also join the group if your interested and anyone else for that matter. Thanks.

 

[TRUNDLETRUC]

After my previous post I would like to thank satsuma and normabiron and others for giving some idea of the actual situation. The problem with internet forums is that the worrying bits get over blown and this must put off a lot of people from bothering to travel to Turkey.
Our boat is in Greece but we may travel to Turkey sometime soon. We have a 2002 Bavaria 36- 2 cabin version and although I can think of a space for a grey water tank (We have an 80 litre black water tank).it is nowhere big enough for the 300 litres we seem to get through every 3 days when we have visitors. (Is showering on the back of the boat after a swim without soap allowed?) However, it is obvious that lots of people are "bending" the requirements a little. Although it is not nice to have to do this and introduces a feeling of worry that I can do without.
Thanks to all those that have given a more balanced view.

 

[Dig]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I am pretty sure anyone can have tanks fitted to their boat, space providing of course, and sizes limited to the effect on stability etc. I do not personally know of any leisure boats in Turkey that have them fitted under 12m! However I do know that the "regulations" in Turkey are there for good intention if a little ill-conceived. I have recently delivered boats to the Turkish Coast Guard that have no holding tanks whatsoever, but they do have a small chemical treatment plant that allows direct discharge!

The regulations are not there to keep people away from Turkey, and as far as I know the regulations are there for all boats, though rarely if ever enforced (I have never heard of any fines, charges or arrests because of non-compliance). Please understand that in Turkey it is almost a democratic right to choose not to follow regulations! Providing people are "generally" doing what they should, there is often no concern about small transgressions, and interpretation of any regulation is variable to say the least! Indeed I know of one Coast Guard officer, who concluded that the blue card is only for Turkish Flagged vessels so not to worry!

I have a blue card (3 years now), and when getting it, was asked what size is the grey tank - Answered "I don't have a grey tank" Reply, "that's OK". In the 3 years of having the blue card I have never used it. It is suggested that I should have sea water pumped out if need be, just to show something on the card. I am not charged for pumping out so I will take them up on their offer.

In reality, the Turkish Coast Guard spend most of their time eating, drinking Cay, or checking the validity of Turkish flagged boats (mostly to make sure they are not chartering if they don't have a license!). They might stray occassionally onto foreign flagged vessels, especially if they see an attractive, scantily clad woman on board, but unless you are stupid enough to discharge anything inside a marina, bay, or close to shore you are not likely to even be challenged. As already mentioned make sure your courtesy flag is in good condition, neither torn nor too faded!
Some of the Coast Guard actually board foreign vessels just to practice their English so don't be too surprised!

Turkish culture exists and thrives on common courtesy, politeness and respect irrespective of law or regulation, but not the same measures that you may be used to in other countries. Personal space, both physically and through personal questions may seem intrusive to some, but it is normal here to take an interest in people around you! Driving the wrong way up a dual carraigeway is shocking and dangerous but here it is usually the shortest route, so may be overlooked. Red traffic lights are usually observed but if nothing else is coming, why wait! But "turning a blind eye" is not exclusively a Turkish thing, and I know of several rural areas in the UK where drink driving is ignored (or rather, not actively policed) because there is no public transport and the pubs would not survive otherwise.

As far as I can tell, the divergent interpretations in Turkey are no different to what you may experience in Greece with varying enforcement or not of DEKPAs, harbour fees or any other "regulation" that locals choose to ignore.

It is understandable that many people will not be comfortable with a culture that does not strictly observe the rules!, but I find it pleasant, refreshing and attractive to still have a significant level of freedom of choice in life, usually where it does not impact on others!

Sorry satsuma i some how had not seen this post,thank you for a good guide to what things are like in your part of Turkey.