Turbo Diesel – Immediate Full Throttle After New Pump Fitted…?

[MYStargazer]

Any ideas or suggestions, chaps?


I have a Perkins Prima (Volvo M50/Montego) turbo diesel.


There was a diesel leak from the Bosch VE injection pump - so I found a secondhand unit. I replaced the cylinder head gasket, cam belt and injection pump in one go.


The engine had been standing for two and a half years.


I went to start her, and… wooosh! She went to full revs immediately. I turned the engine off right away on the key and let the smoke (grey) clear.


I thought the idle must have been badly adjusted, so reduced the idle speed as much as possible and tried again – same result.


I’m satisfied that this wasn’t a case of a runaway engine as the engine stopped the moment the fuel supply was cut off.


The injector pump had been sitting on a shelf for nearly three years, and there was old fuel in the tank (mixed with fresh fuel) – so I’m thinking something in the injector pump must be stuck open.


Anyone familiar with this situation?


I’m tempted as a last resort to take the head off the injector pump and see if the governor spring is sticking – has anyone tried this? Would I then need a new head seal in the short term?


Many thanks.

 

[savageseadog]

Must be a jammed or faulty injector pump at a guess. There's a good link here:

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw/engine/fi/injpump.html

 

[Heckler]

Any ideas or suggestions, chaps?


I have a Perkins Prima (Volvo M50/Montego) turbo diesel.


There was a diesel leak from the Bosch VE injection pump - so I found a secondhand unit. I replaced the cylinder head gasket, cam belt and injection pump in one go.


The engine had been standing for two and a half years.


I went to start her, and… wooosh! She went to full revs immediately. I turned the engine off right away on the key and let the smoke (grey) clear.


I thought the idle must have been badly adjusted, so reduced the idle speed as much as possible and tried again – same result.


I’m satisfied that this wasn’t a case of a runaway engine as the engine stopped the moment the fuel supply was cut off.


The injector pump had been sitting on a shelf for nearly three years, and there was old fuel in the tank (mixed with fresh fuel) – so I’m thinking something in the injector pump must be stuck open.


Anyone familiar with this situation?


I’m tempted as a last resort to take the head off the injector pump and see if the governor spring is sticking – has anyone tried this? Would I then need a new head seal in the short term?


Many thanks.

A diesel engine starts with the fuel rack fully open and the governor immediately should take control. On the VE pump you can take the top off, IIRC there is a rubber o ring type seal. Again IIRC, there is a big spring in there, wiggle it to see if the mechanism works.
For info I have just bought and am reconditioning a Maestro Turbo diesel engine, the pump is surplus to requirements, (mine is naturally aspirated)
Make me an offer if you want it!
S

 

[MYStargazer]

A diesel engine starts with the fuel rack fully open and the governor immediately should take control. On the VE pump you can take the top off, IIRC there is a rubber o ring type seal. Again IIRC, there is a big spring in there, wiggle it to see if the mechanism works.
For info I have just bought and am reconditioning a Maestro Turbo diesel engine, the pump is surplus to requirements, (mine is naturally aspirated)
Make me an offer if you want it!
S

Very tempting - thanks - will bear in mind. If it's any help, I came across these guys http://www.parts4engines.com/perkins-prima-m50-m60-m80t/ but their gasket set looks identical to the cheapie I bought on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Head-Gask...hash=item540e776be6:m:mj7pKy5XoPtUwL7n28J-i9Q

I bought the 'new' replacement pump off someone in similar circumstances but I should have fitted it right away rather than leaving it lying around.

Having looked at this http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/ve-injector-pump-rebuild-in-colour_topic17456.html I'm quite temped to strip and rebuild my old one using one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-VE-...hash=item3f57553f7e:m:mDvlGmuiKuSjHrQGu2c17RA (or similar) - has anyone attempted this?

It hadn't occurred to me how complicated these pumps are and how vulnerable to neglect, corrosion, gunk, etc...

 

[black mercury]

Please don't attempt to fix the pump yourself. The control sleeve has probably seized and would be an easy fix by an injection pump specialist as long as all the internal parts are ok, just a matter of disassembly, clean, reassembly and calibrated on test. If the pump has been stored with diesel inside it will begin to seize up after a few months, and yes sometimes you will get away with it but as in your case three years is too long. The pumps are tested in calibration oil which will keep the pump from seizing for up to a year. We are beginning to see pumps brought to us in bits were people have had a go themselves after watching clips on youtube or the internet, and were it would have been a simple fix if they had left it well alone they end up doing a couple of hundred pounds worth of damage. If you only try to take the top lid off and don't know the way it should be put back on you will bend the fulcrum and it will go to maximum fuel and stay there. An inline plunger type injection pump would be reasonably easy to take apart and to put together again but not a rotary pump.

 

[Bobc]

Please don't attempt to fix the pump yourself. The control sleeve has probably seized and would be an easy fix by an injection pump specialist as long as all the internal parts are ok, just a matter of disassembly, clean, reassembly and calibrated on test. If the pump has been stored with diesel inside it will begin to seize up after a few months, and yes sometimes you will get away with it but as in your case three years is too long. The pumps are tested in calibration oil which will keep the pump from seizing for up to a year. We are beginning to see pumps brought to us in bits were people have had a go themselves after watching clips on youtube or the internet, and were it would have been a simple fix if they had left it well alone they end up doing a couple of hundred pounds worth of damage. If you only try to take the top lid off and don't know the way it should be put back on you will bend the fulcrum and it will go to maximum fuel and stay there. An inline plunger type injection pump would be reasonably easy to take apart and to put together again but not a rotary pump.

Sound advice.

 

[Heckler]

Very tempting - thanks - will bear in mind. If it's any help, I came across these guys http://www.parts4engines.com/perkins-prima-m50-m60-m80t/ but their gasket set looks identical to the cheapie I bought on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Head-Gask...hash=item540e776be6:m:mj7pKy5XoPtUwL7n28J-i9Q

I bought the 'new' replacement pump off someone in similar circumstances but I should have fitted it right away rather than leaving it lying around.

Having looked at this http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/ve-injector-pump-rebuild-in-colour_topic17456.html I'm quite temped to strip and rebuild my old one using one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-VE-...hash=item3f57553f7e:m:mDvlGmuiKuSjHrQGu2c17RA (or similar) - has anyone attempted this?

It hadn't occurred to me how complicated these pumps are and how vulnerable to neglect, corrosion, gunk, etc...

I took one apart a few years ago. It was quite straight forward. I took a few pix as I went along. Bear in mind that maintenance was my game!
S

 

[Heckler]

Very tempting - thanks - will bear in mind. If it's any help, I came across these guys http://www.parts4engines.com/perkins-prima-m50-m60-m80t/ but their gasket set looks identical to the cheapie I bought on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Head-Gask...hash=item540e776be6:m:mj7pKy5XoPtUwL7n28J-i9Q

I bought the 'new' replacement pump off someone in similar circumstances but I should have fitted it right away rather than leaving it lying around.

Having looked at this http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/ve-injector-pump-rebuild-in-colour_topic17456.html I'm quite temped to strip and rebuild my old one using one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOSCH-VE-...hash=item3f57553f7e:m:mDvlGmuiKuSjHrQGu2c17RA (or similar) - has anyone attempted this?

It hadn't occurred to me how complicated these pumps are and how vulnerable to neglect, corrosion, gunk, etc...

On our engines the valve stem seals are the superior top hat type, the parts4engines gasket set has both types in and the gaskets are made here.
The head gasket will have nothing to do with the runaway.
Stu

 

[MYStargazer]

Please don't attempt to fix the pump yourself. The control sleeve has probably seized and would be an easy fix by an injection pump specialist as long as all the internal parts are ok, just a matter of disassembly, clean, reassembly and calibrated on test. If the pump has been stored with diesel inside it will begin to seize up after a few months, and yes sometimes you will get away with it but as in your case three years is too long. The pumps are tested in calibration oil which will keep the pump from seizing for up to a year. We are beginning to see pumps brought to us in bits were people have had a go themselves after watching clips on youtube or the internet, and were it would have been a simple fix if they had left it well alone they end up doing a couple of hundred pounds worth of damage. If you only try to take the top lid off and don't know the way it should be put back on you will bend the fulcrum and it will go to maximum fuel and stay there. An inline plunger type injection pump would be reasonably easy to take apart and to put together again but not a rotary pump.

Thanks for your thoughts. I see where you're coming from.

But I just asked for a quote for a rebuild (assuming that the insides are mostly gunked-up so any quick fix may only temporary). The cost? 300 quid!!!

I think I'll take my chances and have a go myself. I can't see that any special tools are needed other than a modified 13mm spanner for the triangular-headed bolt on the side.

If all the internal passageways are clean, and new seals are used, I can't see what there is to go wrong. I'll be marking all the obviously adjustable parts as I disassemble.

 

[MYStargazer]

I took one apart a few years ago. It was quite straight forward. I took a few pix as I went along. Bear in mind that maintenance was my game!
S

Now taking one apart when there's nothing wrong looks like asking for trouble!

I've taken to virtually holding the mini-iPad with one hand taking hundreds of reference photos as I go - it makes jobs on the engine so much easier.

 

[Heckler]

Now taking one apart when there's nothing wrong looks like asking for trouble!

I've taken to virtually holding the mini-iPad with one hand taking hundreds of reference photos as I go - it makes jobs on the engine so much easier.

Got it cheap, was for a Perkins Phaser, was curious, wasnt difficult, I ground a 13mm ? socket on one side to fit the three cornered bolt on the side
S

 

[coliholic]

Black Mercury seems to know what he's talking about and may even be a repairer. So why don't you send him a PM and see if you can meet up for a beer and take the pump with you and maybe he'll show you how it's done?

 

[Bobc]

If you do decide to do it yourself, would you be so good as to take some pics and put a little write-up on here for other forumites?

 

[MYStargazer]

If you do decide to do it yourself, would you be so good as to take some pics and put a little write-up on here for other forumites?

I will, yes.

Just need to find the right repair kit now...