jimi
Well-known member
Went to ge a sail repaired today and got into a discussion with the sailmaker, he reckoned a Tri Radial Genoa was the mutts nuts, anybody any experience of them?
Tri Radial Genoas
- Thread starter jimi
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Stingo
Well-known member
Jim, with the mutts nuts or with tri-radials?
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you
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jimi
Well-known member
Certainly would be intrigued by any of your experience with the former but was particularly wishing to find out if parting with nearly £1300 for a Tri Radial Genoa would be a value added process ... pray tell though/forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Stingo
Well-known member
As a three year old, I learned to let sleeping dogs lie. Let your imagination do the rest. All I'll add is that that dog never did become my best friend.
Sorry, can't donate an opinion on tri-radials even though I have one. Never been able to compare it to another cut - although I can compare the tri-radial cut on my nuts caused by said mutt! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif
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Sorry, can't donate an opinion on tri-radials even though I have one. Never been able to compare it to another cut - although I can compare the tri-radial cut on my nuts caused by said mutt! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you
david_e
Active member
I ordered one, on the strong recommendation and evidence from the sailmaker. It is performance cruising sail, made in a Mylar laminated in a silk chiffon type material. Can't comment on performance because it hasn't been up yet, but after many years windsurfing, where much sail development takes place, stiff materials delivered far better performance.
There was a brief review in one of the mags recently where they commented on the much better performance of a decent foresail. To me it is a bit like a car, you can have the same shell, but different engines, if you are changing it is worth paying the extra for imho. In general, the standard benny sails are as cheap as you can get em.
There was a brief review in one of the mags recently where they commented on the much better performance of a decent foresail. To me it is a bit like a car, you can have the same shell, but different engines, if you are changing it is worth paying the extra for imho. In general, the standard benny sails are as cheap as you can get em.
jimi
Well-known member
Last comment is an echo of the sailmakers! I'm going to try to get another couple of years out the main but was considering changing the Genoa earlier to get better windward performance, partic when there are some rolls in the headsail.
david_e
Active member
Sailmakers comments
Could be because it is true!! For once customers agree with salesmen!
Woops, not trying to flog 'em for 'em. My 211 had benny sails that were 1 season old, knackered and suffered to windward in a blow.
If you get a genoa in dacron and apply a radial cut design the improvement is marginal and not worth having, a stiffer material benefits more from the radial cut and because of the stiffness can be shaped flatter. this will not only help your windard performance, in anything but lightest of airs, by holding it's shape alot longer and also allowing the boat to sail more vertically. The need to reef becomes less.
Having said that, expect with any sail to start losing windward performance the minute you put a few rolls in, all the dimensions and tensions alter.
I would suggest as better and cheaper alternative getting a number 3 furling genoa cut for your boat. This will perform far better in stronger winds and if all hell breaks out you can still furl it in. Could get it in a cross cut in a performance dacron and it would cost less than a grand (I think). This is what I am thinking of doing if the family respond well to the racing.
Could be because it is true!! For once customers agree with salesmen!
Woops, not trying to flog 'em for 'em. My 211 had benny sails that were 1 season old, knackered and suffered to windward in a blow.
If you get a genoa in dacron and apply a radial cut design the improvement is marginal and not worth having, a stiffer material benefits more from the radial cut and because of the stiffness can be shaped flatter. this will not only help your windard performance, in anything but lightest of airs, by holding it's shape alot longer and also allowing the boat to sail more vertically. The need to reef becomes less.
Having said that, expect with any sail to start losing windward performance the minute you put a few rolls in, all the dimensions and tensions alter.
I would suggest as better and cheaper alternative getting a number 3 furling genoa cut for your boat. This will perform far better in stronger winds and if all hell breaks out you can still furl it in. Could get it in a cross cut in a performance dacron and it would cost less than a grand (I think). This is what I am thinking of doing if the family respond well to the racing.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Jimi - from my understanding, if you are building a cruising sail on a roler forestay, out of standard materials (ie no mylar) then use cross cut. Performance may not be so great but it will last very much longer. Also get sponge padding in luff. If the aspect ratio os fairly high, then a cross cut is every bit as good. If its a low aspect then think more of triradial.
This advice came from Hyde sails who have produced a sail I can roll down to storm jib size and I get no bag.
Its all a compromise - if you want to err more on the value for money side, then go for cross cut.
This advice came from Hyde sails who have produced a sail I can roll down to storm jib size and I get no bag.
Its all a compromise - if you want to err more on the value for money side, then go for cross cut.
jimi
Well-known member
My Genoa is 140% overlap. From what the guy was saying the major benefit would be that heavier wieght cloth could be used neared the clew so that combined with a foam luff the sail would hold it shape well when rolled.
jimi
Well-known member
Re: Sailmakers comments
Funnily enough the No 3 was where I started with the guy but he thought it was a bad idea as the head of no3 would be well short of the mast head, which apparently would give problems when trying to furl. He also talked me into a tri sail saying the cloth on my main was too light to support sailing in very strong winf conditions. Got a third reef bunged in anyway though.
Funnily enough the No 3 was where I started with the guy but he thought it was a bad idea as the head of no3 would be well short of the mast head, which apparently would give problems when trying to furl. He also talked me into a tri sail saying the cloth on my main was too light to support sailing in very strong winf conditions. Got a third reef bunged in anyway though.
Chris_Stannard
New member
I have a tri raadial maylar 140% gib, the boat goes like a train and the sail maintains its shape very well. It also has a padded luff to improve the shape when it is rolled in to 2/3 or 1/2. Only slight problem is that you have to get the halyard tension right if you want to point well. If you are replacing the genoa adnd can afford it I would say go for it
Chris Stannard
Chris Stannard
bigmart
New member
They sound almost too good to be true. The question that springs to my mind is: What kind of lifespan can you expect?
I've always heard that Mylar sails are great for racing but us tight fisted cruisers should stick to the old fasioned stuff.
Martin
I've always heard that Mylar sails are great for racing but us tight fisted cruisers should stick to the old fasioned stuff.
Martin
david_e
Active member
Re: no 3
This suggestion came from a fellow cruiser/racer. Can't think how it would be so short as on a furler it is mainly in the foot that you lose it, try another sailmaker.
This suggestion came from a fellow cruiser/racer. Can't think how it would be so short as on a furler it is mainly in the foot that you lose it, try another sailmaker.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Beware
Jimi,
I took a good look at this a few months back (my new genny is on order). Yes a triradial will perform better, but it has to be built from a laminate rather than plain vanilla dacron. Although the durability of laminates has improved a lot in the last few years, your triradial will cost more, need more careful handling (they don't like being stored wet), will be more prone to chafe (or will need more chafe protection) and will not last as long - maybe 75% of the life of Dacron. FWIW, I've ordered a x-cut in Marblehead, which is one of the top of the current crop of dacron fabrics - at about 65% of the price quoted for an equivalent-sized triradial. But I have no pretensions to racing (got the T-shirts).
Of course, Mr Hyde is in the business of selling performance sails - you might get a different story from a more cruisy sailmaker. The bossman at Kemps (Bob?) talks a lot of sense.
Jimi,
I took a good look at this a few months back (my new genny is on order). Yes a triradial will perform better, but it has to be built from a laminate rather than plain vanilla dacron. Although the durability of laminates has improved a lot in the last few years, your triradial will cost more, need more careful handling (they don't like being stored wet), will be more prone to chafe (or will need more chafe protection) and will not last as long - maybe 75% of the life of Dacron. FWIW, I've ordered a x-cut in Marblehead, which is one of the top of the current crop of dacron fabrics - at about 65% of the price quoted for an equivalent-sized triradial. But I have no pretensions to racing (got the T-shirts).
Of course, Mr Hyde is in the business of selling performance sails - you might get a different story from a more cruisy sailmaker. The bossman at Kemps (Bob?) talks a lot of sense.
extravert
New member
I changed from a cross-cut to a laminate tri-radial on my first boat. This is what I reckoned...
You get slightly better windward performance which is very important when racing, and less important but still nice when cruising. The further off the wind you go the less difference it makes.
They cost more, because they cost more to buy and last less time. When they go it seems to be because of damage rather than becoming baggy and stretched (racers who buy new sails every year will disagree). The film gives up and gets holes in and the inevitable creases won't come out and start splitting.
If you race, get one. If you sail seriously (ie always sail when you can) but cruise, get one if you've got a bit of money to burn and like toys. If you usually motor to windward and only sail when the sun is shining, don't bother.
If you have not used one much before, you will soon find out like I did that they are much more sensitive to correct setting. If your halyard tension is wrong, you and everyone around can easily see, much more so than on a plain cut. I find that if I go from a beat to a reach, or the wind changes strength, the halyard tension needs changing and leads need moving. If this kind of constant tweaking is not your thing then you will not be getting the advantage from it and will not be worth while.
Finally, it's only worth going for one if everything else to do with the headsail is correct. Can you get good tension on your forestay? Are your leads well sited and adjustable? A low stretch headsail on a soggy forestay is money wasted. Your sailmaker keen to sell you a more expensive sail may not tell you this.
You get slightly better windward performance which is very important when racing, and less important but still nice when cruising. The further off the wind you go the less difference it makes.
They cost more, because they cost more to buy and last less time. When they go it seems to be because of damage rather than becoming baggy and stretched (racers who buy new sails every year will disagree). The film gives up and gets holes in and the inevitable creases won't come out and start splitting.
If you race, get one. If you sail seriously (ie always sail when you can) but cruise, get one if you've got a bit of money to burn and like toys. If you usually motor to windward and only sail when the sun is shining, don't bother.
If you have not used one much before, you will soon find out like I did that they are much more sensitive to correct setting. If your halyard tension is wrong, you and everyone around can easily see, much more so than on a plain cut. I find that if I go from a beat to a reach, or the wind changes strength, the halyard tension needs changing and leads need moving. If this kind of constant tweaking is not your thing then you will not be getting the advantage from it and will not be worth while.
Finally, it's only worth going for one if everything else to do with the headsail is correct. Can you get good tension on your forestay? Are your leads well sited and adjustable? A low stretch headsail on a soggy forestay is money wasted. Your sailmaker keen to sell you a more expensive sail may not tell you this.
pandroid
Active member
I had one, and I found that the heavier weight material at the clew merely unbalanced the sail in light airs (needs more wind to blow the clew out, particularly downwind) and the thing didnt set any better in a blow when rolled (admittedly it didnt have a foam luff). I now have a traditional cross-cut (with foam) and I find it better. (different maker)
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Re: A good summary
I think you have summed up the pros and cons very well.
Jimi - if you have money to burn - get one - if you don't stick with a good cross cut. Also - you pays for what you get - so don't go to the cheapest sailmaker.
I think you have summed up the pros and cons very well.
Jimi - if you have money to burn - get one - if you don't stick with a good cross cut. Also - you pays for what you get - so don't go to the cheapest sailmaker.
kds
New member
I had a tri-radial, dacron, roler reefing 130% Genoa produced on tha advice of a rigging consultant for a classic yacht (Atalanta). The cut allows a lighter cloth for a given windstrength, so you don't need to reef it so soon. I keep it full until the second mainsail reef is in.
It wins me races and still pulls when partly furled and is a gem off the wind.
I don't buy the one about only suitable for laminates.
Ken
Check out some pictures of my boat at;
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.canongrange.co.uk/boat>http://www.canongrange.co.uk/boat</A>
It wins me races and still pulls when partly furled and is a gem off the wind.
I don't buy the one about only suitable for laminates.
Ken
Check out some pictures of my boat at;
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.canongrange.co.uk/boat>http://www.canongrange.co.uk/boat</A>
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Tri or Bi?
Sail in your pix looks like a bi-radial which used to be more fashionable than it is now.
Bi-radials were often built in Dacron, but they lose their shape quite quickly as the cloth stretches while the seams stay hard.
Sail in your pix looks like a bi-radial which used to be more fashionable than it is now.
Bi-radials were often built in Dacron, but they lose their shape quite quickly as the cloth stretches while the seams stay hard.
MADFISH
New member
Re: Tri or Bi?
I bought a bi radial genoa for my Hunter horizon 26 last year. It is a laminate sail and for the size of sail (154sq ft) is a better bet than tri Radial. It is a fantastic sail. Very easy to use as it does not stretch like a dacron sail so as long as the sailmaker got the shape right in the first place you don't have to crank the halyard tension on when the breeze gets up. (I may have to when it gets older!)
It has a foam luff so it reefs very well. I personally would reccomend you get one (or a tri radial) as you get a much more stable sail and a lot lighter. I recon about 1/3rd of the weight.
One last thing, it is very important that the sailmaker cuts the cloth out in the direction of the loads. Or else it is a complete waste of time.......
Try Kemps Sails. There a friendly bunch based in Wareham and very competitively priced.
I bought a bi radial genoa for my Hunter horizon 26 last year. It is a laminate sail and for the size of sail (154sq ft) is a better bet than tri Radial. It is a fantastic sail. Very easy to use as it does not stretch like a dacron sail so as long as the sailmaker got the shape right in the first place you don't have to crank the halyard tension on when the breeze gets up. (I may have to when it gets older!)
It has a foam luff so it reefs very well. I personally would reccomend you get one (or a tri radial) as you get a much more stable sail and a lot lighter. I recon about 1/3rd of the weight.
One last thing, it is very important that the sailmaker cuts the cloth out in the direction of the loads. Or else it is a complete waste of time.......
Try Kemps Sails. There a friendly bunch based in Wareham and very competitively priced.
