Binman
Well-Known Member
Hi, anyone with a Pandora 700, who could give me the Transom height for this sailer, engine sits in a well, require measurement from transom to water line, thanks, will help me chose right outboard shaft length.
Transom Height Pandora 700
- Thread starter Binman
- Start date
TSB240
Well-Known Member
I am not sure you are going the right way with this.
What you want is a measurement from the top of the well where the underside of the clamp for the Outboard sits to the waterline so that you can specify the length of the ob.
See attached pictures of a similar boat/well.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79352891/IMAG1250.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79352891/IMAG1125.jpg
The height you want is from the top of the aluminium cover to the waterline. In our case we used either a long shaft or a standard shaft ob.
The only advantage with the longshaft was we picked up less seaweed in the prop .
We never had a problem with either breaking the surface even in the fiercest wind against tide conditions.
The long shaft engine was easier to get in and out of the well but harder to store in a locker.
What you want is a measurement from the top of the well where the underside of the clamp for the Outboard sits to the waterline so that you can specify the length of the ob.
See attached pictures of a similar boat/well.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79352891/IMAG1250.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79352891/IMAG1125.jpg
The height you want is from the top of the aluminium cover to the waterline. In our case we used either a long shaft or a standard shaft ob.
The only advantage with the longshaft was we picked up less seaweed in the prop .
We never had a problem with either breaking the surface even in the fiercest wind against tide conditions.
The long shaft engine was easier to get in and out of the well but harder to store in a locker.
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Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
Bit of Google-fu shows most Pandora owners seem to use long or extra long shaft.... ask on the owners forum?? http://www.voy.com/106985/3/
Binman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your replies, not wanting to split hairs, but my question was worded correctly, Transom (nautical) Wikipedia. The motor on smaller boats is usually mounted on the Transom and held in place by clamps or metal bolts, As your picture.
So the depth from the transom ie your metal strip to the water line, is what I was after,which is what I asked in the first place. Anyway from memory I think it is 15 inches, this is what I would like confirmed, from that I can work out the shaft length required minimum. I think the well idea is the best position for a engine to stop the prop being exposed, which it can be,when hung on a Stern Transom.
So the depth from the transom ie your metal strip to the water line, is what I was after,which is what I asked in the first place. Anyway from memory I think it is 15 inches, this is what I would like confirmed, from that I can work out the shaft length required minimum. I think the well idea is the best position for a engine to stop the prop being exposed, which it can be,when hung on a Stern Transom.
Seajet
...
Binman,
my boat has a well; a standard shaft happens to be fine on her, and an important factor to bear in mind is that it's usually difficult to stow long or extra long shaft engines so if one is raising and stowing the engine this is a consideration, as long as it reaches the water correctly !
Leaving the engine in the well is I would suggest best avoided if possible, as it still incurs drag, promotes corrosion and leaves the prop able to collect ropes & flotsam.
I find stowing the engine and fitting a fairing plug to give a smooth hull bottom is a boon on any sail of more than a few minutes, gaining over a knot.
Of course if the engine is a 4 stroke the stowage attitude will be prescribed by the makers, to avoid lube oil flowing into the combustion chamber.
P.S, hate to say it but TSB240 is right.
my boat has a well; a standard shaft happens to be fine on her, and an important factor to bear in mind is that it's usually difficult to stow long or extra long shaft engines so if one is raising and stowing the engine this is a consideration, as long as it reaches the water correctly !
Leaving the engine in the well is I would suggest best avoided if possible, as it still incurs drag, promotes corrosion and leaves the prop able to collect ropes & flotsam.
I find stowing the engine and fitting a fairing plug to give a smooth hull bottom is a boon on any sail of more than a few minutes, gaining over a knot.
Of course if the engine is a 4 stroke the stowage attitude will be prescribed by the makers, to avoid lube oil flowing into the combustion chamber.
P.S, hate to say it but TSB240 is right.
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Binman
Well-Known Member
Hi, I agree, the Pandora I brought, has a ultra long 9.9 Yamaha high thrust, controlled by side mounted control box and cables, weighs a ton, has to be hauled vertically until the prop clears the transom, well this engine is being repaired, carb problem. This has got me thinking of changing the engine, I'm going to look at a 5HP Honda tomorrow think it is a BF5 LU high thrust long shaft 2014. It is an expense I could do with out, but would sell the yamaha once repaired. I could easily cope with the smaller engine, but still want to use the boats own tiller. I would have to lock the Honda engine down so it wouldn't turn, the well of the Pandora is ideally suited to fitting a plug as the well has a lip (edge) half way between transom and water which carries all the way round. Am I thinking the right way.
Seajet
...
On the right lines but some serious details to sort !
Ideally the fairing plug should do just that, plug the well - turbulence & NOISE without an engine or plug is very surprising, a real drag in every way - and it should fair in with the hull to give a smooth bottom.
As my cockpit drains into the well I use an Elvstrom ' Supermax ' dinghy self bailer in the plug; at speed it sucks out water just as in a dinghy, at rest it still drains as the cockpit sole is above waterline.
In a gale I'd remove the whole plug giving a huge cockpit drain.
Locking the engine in line is normal, one still has the propwash over the rudder when going ahead, and astern just takes practice.
Even with a heavy 4 stroke ( I reckon the optimum is a well maintained Mariner 5 hp 2-stroke with remote tank and charging coil ) it's possible to ship the engine for any longer trip, and I've found with suitable encouragement like wind dropping in a shipping channel it's amazing how quickly that engine can be back in the well & running...
pics here, A22 well plug, and from below fitted; NBthis was a duff batch of mouldings we had, the pic is to illustrate it doesn't quite fair in with the hull, but you get the idea.
View attachment 48526View attachment 48527
Ideally the fairing plug should do just that, plug the well - turbulence & NOISE without an engine or plug is very surprising, a real drag in every way - and it should fair in with the hull to give a smooth bottom.
As my cockpit drains into the well I use an Elvstrom ' Supermax ' dinghy self bailer in the plug; at speed it sucks out water just as in a dinghy, at rest it still drains as the cockpit sole is above waterline.
In a gale I'd remove the whole plug giving a huge cockpit drain.
Locking the engine in line is normal, one still has the propwash over the rudder when going ahead, and astern just takes practice.
Even with a heavy 4 stroke ( I reckon the optimum is a well maintained Mariner 5 hp 2-stroke with remote tank and charging coil ) it's possible to ship the engine for any longer trip, and I've found with suitable encouragement like wind dropping in a shipping channel it's amazing how quickly that engine can be back in the well & running...
pics here, A22 well plug, and from below fitted; NBthis was a duff batch of mouldings we had, the pic is to illustrate it doesn't quite fair in with the hull, but you get the idea.
View attachment 48526View attachment 48527
Seajet
...
Binman,
further re engine size, it's a common mistake to fit engines which are far too heavy, I've seen similar things on Andersons and they do nothing but crucify sailing performance, especially as invariably left in the well as too heavy to lift.
Beloved by Chiropractors nation-wide I suspect.
A 5 hp is fine, will get the boat to hull speed and be economical to motor across the Channel in calms, I've done this with a 4hp.
Flog the big engine, the Pandora is a decent sailing boat !
further re engine size, it's a common mistake to fit engines which are far too heavy, I've seen similar things on Andersons and they do nothing but crucify sailing performance, especially as invariably left in the well as too heavy to lift.
Beloved by Chiropractors nation-wide I suspect.
A 5 hp is fine, will get the boat to hull speed and be economical to motor across the Channel in calms, I've done this with a 4hp.
Flog the big engine, the Pandora is a decent sailing boat !
TSB240
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I was teaching you to suck eggs!
from the owners forum......Hi Tim,
Thanks for the advice. The London boat show is not that far away. It will give me a chance to look around at the options.
Best regards
Les
>Hi Les, if you are mounting your new engine in the
>original well at the back of the cockpit, then you
>need a long shaft engine. Most manufacturers produce
>both long and short shaft versions of each model.
>Some manufacturers also make a "sailmate" engine that
>have a different gearbox and propeller specifically
>for sailing boats. Hope that helps!
No mention in any of the posts of the dimension you want. Recommendation is anything from 4 hp to 10 hp from builders long shaft preffered. However plenty of owners reporting using auxiliary engines from dinghies in well most of these would be short shaft. Most of these posters would also be using two strokes. Your problem may not be the shaft length but the overall height of the engine if you go four stroke.
I am close to the where one of the largest fleet of Pandoras used to be based and might be able to put a tape measure on one for you this weekend.
Alternatively the Fleet captain at Abersoch used to run the Abersoch Boat Yard. Think his name was Tim Long. I am sure he might have the info you require.
Steve
from the owners forum......Hi Tim,
Thanks for the advice. The London boat show is not that far away. It will give me a chance to look around at the options.
Best regards
Les
>Hi Les, if you are mounting your new engine in the
>original well at the back of the cockpit, then you
>need a long shaft engine. Most manufacturers produce
>both long and short shaft versions of each model.
>Some manufacturers also make a "sailmate" engine that
>have a different gearbox and propeller specifically
>for sailing boats. Hope that helps!
No mention in any of the posts of the dimension you want. Recommendation is anything from 4 hp to 10 hp from builders long shaft preffered. However plenty of owners reporting using auxiliary engines from dinghies in well most of these would be short shaft. Most of these posters would also be using two strokes. Your problem may not be the shaft length but the overall height of the engine if you go four stroke.
I am close to the where one of the largest fleet of Pandoras used to be based and might be able to put a tape measure on one for you this weekend.
Alternatively the Fleet captain at Abersoch used to run the Abersoch Boat Yard. Think his name was Tim Long. I am sure he might have the info you require.
Steve
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Binman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, I have this evening found I can fit remote to this engine, the same as my heavy Yamaha. It's a lot better to use the boats tiller, I have a tiller pilot that I use, also a locking mechanism like a stainless steel tube that slides over the engine clamps locks with a key, i won't be often lifting the engine out, I am now confident I'm doing the right thing, I find it very helpful to be able to talk sailing matters through on this excellent web site.
Seajet
...
I presume you mean a security lock on your engine to keep it in the well.
This is very sad for the boat and any prospects you had for visiting distant horizons or even being home in time for tea.
Never mind, try to enjoy a crippled potentially good sailing boat.
This is very sad for the boat and any prospects you had for visiting distant horizons or even being home in time for tea.
Never mind, try to enjoy a crippled potentially good sailing boat.
Binman
Well-Known Member
I Can clearly see where you are coming from, the way forward would appear to be ditch the remote controls, lift the engine out and take it with me when going ashore, locking it in the cabin not a good action?
VicS
Well-Known Member
Seajet is concerned about the drag that an engine in a well will cause when sailing. Not only the drag of the engine gearbox and prop, but the drag caused by the open bottomed well.
He would have you lift the engine from the well and fit a blanking plug to create a smooth bottom when sailing. I expect that if he had a boat with an inboard engine and sail drive he would devise some system of withdrawing the sail drive while sailing.
From my own experience I can tell you that an outboard left in the cabin when leaving the boat is not secure. That's the only time I have had one stolen. It is now left locked and chained to its mounting bracket.
Sorry but I cannot see the point of fitting remote controls to an engine in a cockpit well. They would be nice on a bracket mounted engine but not necessary when the engine is within easy reach.
Cannot advise on the required shaft length as I am not familiar with the Pandora. I am slightly surprised that a longshaft (20") is required, but would be amazed if an extra long shaft (25") engine is required
Seajet
...
Seeing as I've had a boat with a Volvo saildrive ( Carter 30 ) I can confirm that's nonsense.
I was not talking about taking the engine home or leaving it in the cabin - where it can leak petrol in both liquid & vapour form and is not secure from thieves - I mentioned stowing it in a cockpit locker, hence why I said don't have a shaft any longer than necessary.
My boat happens to be OK with a standard shaft engine, even when heeled or in waves, but I don't know how different the distance between clamps and waterline on the Pandora is.
Leaving an engine in the well all the time is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down...
I was not talking about taking the engine home or leaving it in the cabin - where it can leak petrol in both liquid & vapour form and is not secure from thieves - I mentioned stowing it in a cockpit locker, hence why I said don't have a shaft any longer than necessary.
My boat happens to be OK with a standard shaft engine, even when heeled or in waves, but I don't know how different the distance between clamps and waterline on the Pandora is.
Leaving an engine in the well all the time is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down...
VicS
Well-Known Member
Or as you said earlier, "a crippled potentially good sailing boat".
Unfortunately the alternative might be a sailor crippled by a slipped disc or other back injury caused by trying to shift over half hundredweight of awkwardly shaped machinery from one position to another while at sea.
Outboard wells have their advantages and disadvantages compared to stern transom mounting brackets. The drag and the difficulty in lifting the engine clear of the water when sailing are two of the disadvantages.
I get someone to help me lift my outboard onto its bracket before I launch the boat in the spring and there it stays until someone helps me lift it off again after the boat is hauled out again in the autumn.
Seajet
...
VicS,
even with the engine left in a well it's vastly preferable to a transom hung engine; the advantages being one does not have to face aft to reach the controls, weight distribution is far better - on the transom being the worst place on any boat especially as few are designed with this in mind, let alone modern 4 strokes - one can top up fuel if it's an internal tank, the prop stays immersed even when pitching in waves and one can work on the engine without dangling self and tools over the water.
However re raising and stowing engines for sailing, like most things it's a matter of technique.
When stowing my engine in normal sailing conditions this is my drill;
disconnect fuel line and run engine until it stops, so as to empty the carb to prevent petrol spillage in the locker.
Take lid off cockpit locker ( which is on a strong safety line to avoid being lost in lumpy conditions ) and place it further along on the cockpit seat out of the way, along with the fairing plug.
Undo engine clamps andraise it vertically, resting the cavitation plate on the well lip where the clamps fit.
Drain water from engine - about 20 seconds.
Transfer engine to cockpit locker, standing vertically with the fott resting on a rubber car mat.
Tip engine to slide prop end into locker, head of engine propped higher than leg on a small fender to avoid water in the combustion chamber.
Fit fairing plug and locker lid.
Accelerate.
This is all done well inside a minute, and note there is very little lifting involved, but if bothered the boom and mainsheet could be used as a derrick ( with a strong topping lift ) but that would only suit longer trips.
The main question for Binman is whether the Pandora has a suitable cockpit locker, if she has the next question is can he get a fairing plug through the owners association, the plans for one, or would he have to design and make it from scratch ?
I have known people wishing to leave the engine in the well but minimise drag and noise try fairing plugs with an aperture cut for the outboard leg, semi-sealed with brush bristles or rubber flaps, with limited success due to worries about apparent overheating but it's a thought.
even with the engine left in a well it's vastly preferable to a transom hung engine; the advantages being one does not have to face aft to reach the controls, weight distribution is far better - on the transom being the worst place on any boat especially as few are designed with this in mind, let alone modern 4 strokes - one can top up fuel if it's an internal tank, the prop stays immersed even when pitching in waves and one can work on the engine without dangling self and tools over the water.
However re raising and stowing engines for sailing, like most things it's a matter of technique.
When stowing my engine in normal sailing conditions this is my drill;
disconnect fuel line and run engine until it stops, so as to empty the carb to prevent petrol spillage in the locker.
Take lid off cockpit locker ( which is on a strong safety line to avoid being lost in lumpy conditions ) and place it further along on the cockpit seat out of the way, along with the fairing plug.
Undo engine clamps andraise it vertically, resting the cavitation plate on the well lip where the clamps fit.
Drain water from engine - about 20 seconds.
Transfer engine to cockpit locker, standing vertically with the fott resting on a rubber car mat.
Tip engine to slide prop end into locker, head of engine propped higher than leg on a small fender to avoid water in the combustion chamber.
Fit fairing plug and locker lid.
Accelerate.
This is all done well inside a minute, and note there is very little lifting involved, but if bothered the boom and mainsheet could be used as a derrick ( with a strong topping lift ) but that would only suit longer trips.
The main question for Binman is whether the Pandora has a suitable cockpit locker, if she has the next question is can he get a fairing plug through the owners association, the plans for one, or would he have to design and make it from scratch ?
I have known people wishing to leave the engine in the well but minimise drag and noise try fairing plugs with an aperture cut for the outboard leg, semi-sealed with brush bristles or rubber flaps, with limited success due to worries about apparent overheating but it's a thought.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
I have had Honda, Yamaha, Johnson, Tohatsu, Mariner (same as Tohatsu, different paint) in the 4/5 HP range.
Honda was the least smooth, quiet, reliable. Perhaps they are better now.
langstonelayabout
Well-Known Member
Ladies, please put down your handbags....
Speaking as an ex-Pegasus 700 owner I'd recommend a long shaft engine. My one had a 9.9 Mercury long shaft 4-stroke.
Ultra long would mean you're dragging even more engine through the water than you have to. With the 'standard' 9.9 there is zero chance of lifting the engine out of the water whilst sailing to let the 700 sail properly.
Are you re-engining? I'd recommend you buy a good, used Mercury/Mariner/similar 2-stroke 4 or 5hp sailpower/sailmate; the one with the long shaft, different final drive and bigger propeller. It weighs 18kg. The 9.9 about 70kg. It will still give somecharge to your battery so use your VHF sparingly and convert your lights to LED.
The 'plug' that Seajet refers to? A damn good idea. If you get the smaller engine, lift it and reduce the drag of the prop in the water and sloshing about in the well. I was about to make one for my 700 but then changed plans/boat.
Speaking as an ex-Pegasus 700 owner I'd recommend a long shaft engine. My one had a 9.9 Mercury long shaft 4-stroke.
Ultra long would mean you're dragging even more engine through the water than you have to. With the 'standard' 9.9 there is zero chance of lifting the engine out of the water whilst sailing to let the 700 sail properly.
Are you re-engining? I'd recommend you buy a good, used Mercury/Mariner/similar 2-stroke 4 or 5hp sailpower/sailmate; the one with the long shaft, different final drive and bigger propeller. It weighs 18kg. The 9.9 about 70kg. It will still give somecharge to your battery so use your VHF sparingly and convert your lights to LED.
The 'plug' that Seajet refers to? A damn good idea. If you get the smaller engine, lift it and reduce the drag of the prop in the water and sloshing about in the well. I was about to make one for my 700 but then changed plans/boat.
Seajet
...
Hi Adam,
all good points but Binman's 700 is of the Pandora rather than Pegasus flavour.
Andy
all good points but Binman's 700 is of the Pandora rather than Pegasus flavour.
Andy
langstonelayabout
Well-Known Member
Bugger...
