Torqeedo Travel 1003C as a Shrimper auxiliary?

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maxr_r

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I aim to buy a Shrimper 17 or 19 this season, for estuary and inshore day sailing around Falmouth (UK). My last boat (a Hawk 20) had an outboard well big enough to swivel and tilt the motor, but neither is possible in a Shrimper. You lift the motor out and put it in a locker every time you moor, or leave it in the water and hope it survives the fouling. So, my cunning plan is to buy an electric outboard. There is just one feasible contender - the Torqeedo 1003C. They say this is a 3hp equivalent, with an integral removable battery pack of 915Wh. Weight is 15kg, and unlike a 17kg 3.5hp petrol motor, the Torqeedo has forward and reverse gears, and the weight can divide into the motor and the battery pack.

Portability and overnight recharging is ensured, no explosive petrol vapour or smell, but how about performance? Advice from various sources is that the Torqeedo should be fine for the Crabber/Shrimper 17 (2200lbs towing weight). However the jury's out on whether it's up to powering the 3300lb Shrimper 19 directly into a Force 6 for 5 miles, which should be the worst case 'run for home' scenario. The next size '5hp' Torqeedo Cruise option rules itself out by requiring a very expensive and heavy non portable battery - fine on a marina with shore power (if you have the money to buy it), but not on a swinging mooring.

Any ideas, or experience with these motors? Thanks, Max
 
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maxr_r said:
I aim to buy a Shrimper 17 or 19 this season, for estuary and inshore day sailing around Falmouth (UK). My last boat (a Hawk 20) had an outboard well big enough to swivel and tilt the motor, but neither is possible in a Shrimper. You lift the motor out and put it in a locker every time you moor, or leave it in the water and hope it survives the fouling. So, my cunning plan is to buy an electric outboard. There is just one feasible contender - the Torqeedo 1003C. They say this is a 3hp equivalent, with an integral removable battery pack of 915Wh. Weight is 15kg, and unlike a 17kg 3.5hp petrol motor, the Torqeedo has forward and reverse gears, and the weight can divide into the motor and the battery pack.

Portability and overnight recharging is ensured, no explosive petrol vapour or smell, but how about performance? Advice from various sources is that the Torqeedo should be fine for the Crabber/Shrimper 17 (2200lbs towing weight). However the jury's out on whether it's up to powering the 3300lb Shrimper 19 directly into a Force 6 for 5 miles, which should be the worst case 'run for home' scenario. The next size '5hp' Torqeedo Cruise option rules itself out by requiring a very expensive and heavy non portable battery - fine on a marina with shore power (if you have the money to buy it), but not on a swinging mooring.

Any ideas, or experience with these motors? Thanks, Max
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My problem with the claims made by Torqeedo is that according to the technical specification it has a propulsive power of 480 watts that is only 0.64 hp ! I do not understand how they can compare it with even a 3hp petrol outboard, and I doubt very much if 0.64 hp is going to be adequate for a 19ft Shrimper battling into a force 5! I'd not fancy my chances with a 3hp petrol outboard either for that matter.
The other problem will be the limited range in conditions that require anything approaching full throttle

I know my 6hp Evinrude Yachtwin will handle that sort of situation and that is the sort of thing, perhaps 5hp with a high thrust prop minimum, I would be wanting for a Shrimper
 
Thanks John and Vic - What are you driving with your motor, John?

My problem is that all the current 4-6hp petrol 4 strokes I'm aware of are heavier than we'd want to lift off and into a locker every time we sail, and all current 5hp and up electric equivalents currently require batteries that are too heavy to be portable. It has to have reverse gear because there isn't room in the well of these boats to rotate the motor. Yeah, I know that a well permitting tilting and rotation would be ideal, but they don't, and the boats are otherwise ideal for my purposes :)

As I understand it Vic, electric motors, unlike petrol ones, have maximum torque at zero revs - that may be why the wattage and hp figures aren't comparable.

Any other experience?
 
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Think you will find it will struggle even with the 17' boat to achieve any decent range, never mind 5 miles flat out at the end of the day. This model is designed for dinghies and is perfectly adequate for that if you can live with the range - which is for most people adequate for tender use.

Think you have to accept that for boats of that size there is not an economic alternative to petrol power, unless you see the light and buy a shrimper with a Yanmar 1GM in it. That is a sensible setup for a boat on a mooring, particularly if you have the feathering propeller. FWIIW a "proper" electric power installation for a Shrimper costs around £15k and you still have to recharge from the mains.

Your Torqeedo proposal would be OK for a marina based boat just having short runs for day sails.
 
VicS said:
My problem with the claims made by Torqeedo is that according to the technical specification it has a propulsive power of 480 watts that is only 0.64 hp ! I do not understand how they can compare it with even a 3hp petrol outboard...
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Because the "power" of petrol outboards isn't the actual propulsive power, whereas Torqeedo quote propulsive power. The actual propulsive power of a 3HP petrol outboard is most likely somewhat less than 1HP, making it a suitable comparator. More info here - https://www.torqeedo.com/en/technology-and-environment/performance-and-efficiency.html
 
pvb said:
Because the "power" of petrol outboards isn't the actual propulsive power, whereas Torqeedo quote propulsive power. The actual propulsive power of a 3HP petrol outboard is most likely somewhat less than 1HP, making it a suitable comparator. More info here - https://www.torqeedo.com/en/technology-and-environment/performance-and-efficiency.html
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It would scare some if they knew how much HP a Seagull engine produced at the crankshaft. as you say it is the thrust that the prop produces that matters.
 
Dynamically, an inboard Shrimper makes sense. However, to my mind it also makes a Shrimper a 'little big boat', with all the potential issues from diesel bug, fuel tank leaks/condensation, blocked filters, exhaust elbow corrosion, alternators and wiring, that great smell of diesel, propellor shaft gubbins, and my own personal bugbear - holes drilled in a perfectly good watertight hull with leaky hoses, self destructing water pumps and de-zinctifying seacocks attached :) I have to ask myself if I'm prepared to accept all that for propulsion I'm mostly going to use only for as long as it takes to get on and off a mooring for day sails. We may also find that in future years diesel boat propulsion (like diesel car propulsion) becomes more problematic and even possibly reduces a boat's value - as it is currently starting to do for cars. So, I believe in KISS re. boats. I decided some time ago that I don't want a big boat for those reasons - with all best wishes to those who are happy to accept all the above and invite me to sail with them. I'm just looking for something to tide me over for a few years till electric propulsion is really sorted, with 5hp equivalent power and light affordable batteries that drive a boat for 20 miles.
 
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maxr_r said:
Dynamically, an inboard Shrimper makes sense. However, to my mind it also makes a Shrimper a 'little big boat', with all the potential issues from diesel bug, fuel tank leaks/condensation, blocked filters, exhaust elbow corrosion, alternators and wiring, that great smell of diesel, propellor shaft gubbins, and my own personal bugbear - holes drilled in a perfectly good watertight hull with leaky hoses, self destructing water pumps and de-zinctifying seacocks attached :) And all this for propulsion I'm mostly going to use only for as long as it takes to get on and off a mooring for day sails. We may also find that in future years diesel boat propulsion (like diesel car propulsion) becomes more problematic. So, I believe in KISS re. boats, and I decided some time ago that I don't want a big boat for those reasons (with all the best to those who are happy to accept all the above as part of the deal). I'm just looking for something to tide me over for a few years till electric propulsion is really sorted, with 5hp equivalent power and light affordable batteries that drive a boat for 20 miles.
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Wow!

Don't think I will sleep tonight. Just wonder how I survived pottering around the English channel for over 20 years with a Yanmar 1GM providing auxiliary power without any of the dire things you talk about happening. Thousands of others do the same thing.

You have to recognise that the Shrimper is on the threshold where an inboard starts to make sense - as you can see from the significant number of owners that go down that route. An outboard of 5hp is also more than satisfactory if you don't need the longer range, greater power, electricity and potential reliability you get from an inboard.

Suspect you will have to wait far more than 5 years before you see an electric power plant that will do what you want. we have been (collectively) waiting 30 years for such a thing and it is only the Torqeedo type which has made it technically, but the price penalty is still there. Remember that little boats are right at the end of the queue for development money and there is little in the current automotive development chain that is transferable to small boats.
 
Tranona said:
Wow!

Don't think I will sleep tonight. Just wonder how I survived pottering around the English channel for over 20 years with a Yanmar 1GM providing auxiliary power without any of the dire things you talk about happening. Thousands of others do the same thing.

You have to recognise that the Shrimper is on the threshold where an inboard starts to make sense - as you can see from the significant number of owners that go down that route. An outboard of 5hp is also more than satisfactory if you don't need the longer range, greater power, electricity and potential reliability you get from an inboard.

Suspect you will have to wait far more than 5 years before you see an electric power plant that will do what you want. we have been (collectively) waiting 30 years for such a thing and it is only the Torqeedo type which has made it technically, but the price penalty is still there. Remember that little boats are right at the end of the queue for development money and there is little in the current automotive development chain that is transferable to small boats.
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Well said T!
Some people need a reality check..
 
maxr_r said:
Dynamically, an inboard Shrimper makes sense. However, to my mind it also makes a Shrimper a 'little big boat', with all the potential issues from diesel bug, fuel tank leaks/condensation, blocked filters, exhaust elbow corrosion, alternators and wiring, that great smell of diesel, propellor shaft gubbins, and my own personal bugbear - holes drilled in a perfectly good watertight hull with leaky hoses, self destructing water pumps and de-zinctifying seacocks attached :)...
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I know what you mean. Auxiliary diesels seem to cause more trouble and expense than everything else on the boats to which they are attached. I like many aspects of having an inboard, like not worrying about the effect of waves too much, but in most other respects the damn things are a pain in the neck.

A Silver Century should push your Shrimper along nicely ...
 
Tranona said:
Don't think I will sleep tonight. Just wonder how I survived pottering around the English channel for over 20 years with a Yanmar 1GM providing auxiliary power without any of the dire things you talk about happening.
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That would be the 1GM10 you had to replace, would it?

... there is little in the current automotive development chain that is transferable to small boats.
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Apart from the batteries, of course, though I suppose you could argue that they are driven mainly by the computer industry.
 
JumbleDuck said:
That would be the 1GM10 you had to replace, would it?



Apart from the batteries, of course, though I suppose you could argue that they are driven mainly by the computer industry.
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The 1 GM was in a boat displacing 4 tons and had given sterling service for 20+ years, but the boat deserved a more powerful engine as 4.5 knots cruising was a bit tedious. (Plus, of course I had the money to make the change.) The engine then went in a GK24 and is still doing the business.

While battery technology is moving on (as you keep reminding us) - just that nobody so far has attempted to put it together with a viable motor and associated control and propulsion systems for boats like the Shrimper. Perhaps the fact that there are only around 1000 of them produced over a 20 year time scale has something to do with it!

Like the Seagull idea, although a Century Plus, or better still a 110 would be better. The latter because you could then go backwards. The 110 performed well on my Seawych which was used for much of the development work on that model.
 
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With diesel bug etc., it's becoming an interesting question whether a diesel engine is still an appropriate design for leisure sailing boats boats made in small numbers which preclude expensive development. Recent diesel cars are hugely reliable - unless you're very unlucky, you turn a key and it just works or hundreds of hours a year. Everyone I know with a diesel powered sailing boat, old or new, cheap or expensive, much used or not, has had some kind of trouble with the engine and/or its attached systems. I had a half share in a fast motor boat with 2 x 150hp four stroke outboards, and in six years of bouncing about at 20-30 knots we had no problems with the engines or fuel systems (but plenty with chart plotters, communications etc). Maybe we were lucky, but... It's not helped by the very 'traditional' design of most modern sailing boats which still put the engine in a tight evil smelling hole under the companionway steps, where it becomes a fire trap in the saloon. A few (like the Shrimper 19) have it in the cockpit, or under the cockpit floor (some Dragonfly trimarans and some sports boats). And now, the first yacht with a transom mounted pod electric drive. I like 'just turn the key and go' boats.
 
Torqueedo works well for us with multiple half mile journeys in a heavy 3m rib and with the older battery with 550 capacity. It's brilliant for that but I can't imagine using it to push as 17 foot displacement boat very far in waves
 
maxr_r said:
With diesel bug etc., it's becoming an interesting question whether a diesel engine is still an appropriate design for leisure sailing boats boats made in small numbers which preclude expensive development. Recent diesel cars are hugely reliable - unless you're very unlucky, you turn a key and it just works or hundreds of hours a year. Everyone I know with a diesel powered sailing boat, old or new, cheap or expensive, much used or not, has had some kind of trouble with the engine and/or its attached systems. I had a half share in a fast motor boat with 2 x 150hp four stroke outboards, and in six years of bouncing about at 20-30 knots we had no problems with the engines or fuel systems (but plenty with chart plotters, communications etc). Maybe we were lucky, but... It's not helped by the very 'traditional' design of most modern sailing boats which still put the engine in a tight evil smelling hole under the companionway steps, where it becomes a fire trap in the saloon. A few (like the Shrimper 19) have it in the cockpit, or under the cockpit floor (some Dragonfly trimarans and some sports boats). And now, the first yacht with a transom mounted pod electric drive. I like 'just turn the key and go' boats.
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You really do want to see problems where they do not exist - or can easily be avoided. literally 10s of thousands of sailing boats use diesel as a means of power. diesel bug may be a problem, although I have never encountered it in 35 years of running diesels and there are proven methods of dealing with it. While some, particularly older boats) have cramped installations, often because of volume constraints in the hull, none of the boats I have owned have had that problem. Most of the issues of poor reliability, messiness etc can be firmly blamed on owners, neglect and poor maintenance. This, again is not helped by many older boats being damp and leaky and often not used for months on end. When I sold my last boat after 17 years the engine was running like new, even though it had done 3500 hours and the engine bay was spotless. Regular proper running and meticulous maintenance pays off. Neglect that and you suffer the consequences.
 
Good points, Tranona - some of which which strengthen my resolve to avoid an inboard diesel if at all possible :) I don't think there's much doubt that the small inboard marine engine with its associated drive train requires much more maintenance than a similar size outboard (or much doubt that most small inboard sailing yachts currently have better motoring qualities than most small outboard powered yachts). I'm looking to buy a used boat - and most sailing yachts are very little used. Even with full professional maintenance once a year, these boats sit unused most of the time with diesel containing biodiesel in their tanks - a relatively recent problem for which proper maintenance appears to be a sticking plaster rather than a solution . As I understand it, few recent yachts now have sumps with drain valves in their diesel tanks, and many anti bug diesel additives kill the bugs effectively, at which point they sink to the bottom awaiting a good stir up (like some decent swell), to be collected up and afflict your filters and injectors. I see some 10-15 year old boats for sale with new replacement inboards, at a cost of what, £3000+ for even a 10hp? UK yachting comics might indeed labour the point of breakdowns etc. at sea, but these problems obviously do exist, even if good maintenance reduces the chances of them happening.
 
We tried out a Torqeedo 1003 on a friends Achilles 24 and although it would move it along in flat water there was no way it was going to be adequate pushing the tide or a strong wind or in a seaway. In and out of a marina would be fine.
 
Thanks, guys - sounds like portable electric outboards aren't there yet for anything much above a large dinghy, or maybe getting a light sportsboat off a mooring - pity.
 
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