Toponomastics in UK waters

Roberto

Roberto

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In France, a significant number of coastal sea features (rocks, shoals, capes, etc) have traditionally been named using terms of rural, agricultural origin: the pig, the she-pig, the green cow, the sheep, the butter jar, and so on (pot de beurre, cochon, truie, vache, mouton) possibly as countrymen were leaving the land to seek "fortune" (or simply survive) engaging in fishing, and gave recognizable names to things they saw at sea.
Is there any sort of recurrent naming pattern in UK waters, possibly locally?
 
Roberto said:
In France, a significant number of coastal sea features (rocks, shoals, capes, etc) have traditionally been named using terms of rural, agricultural origin: the pig, the she-pig, the green cow, the sheep, the butter jar, and so on (pot de beurre, cochon, truie, vache, mouton) possibly as countrymen were leaving the land to seek "fortune" (or simply survive) engaging in fishing, and gave recognizable names to things they saw at sea.
Is there any sort of recurrent naming pattern in UK waters, possibly locally?
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A lot of the islands , headland, features in Scotland come from old Norse, and some in Gaelic I would guess that the Welsh coast would be similar and then onto the english coast I would not know, would be in interesting to know how much the land around the coast was Norse related
 
There's an awful lot of "Sgeir Dubh" and "Glas Eilean" in Scotland - they're Gaelic for Black Rock and Grey Island.

But there's no real pattern - Britain is more linguistically and culturally diverse than many people realize.
 
A line of rocks west of Durdle Door are called The Bull, The Blind Cow, The Cow, and The Calf. The dip in the cliff west of Durdle Door is called Scratchy Bottom which sounds very agricultural.
 
Good post, I often try to translate French rocks but sometimes you are defeated by the Breton.

The best name around Plymouth are the inner and outer Slimers. Plus, of course, the Shagstone but we better not go there.

.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
There's an awful lot of "Sgeir Dubh" and "Glas Eilean" in Scotland - they're Gaelic for Black Rock and Grey Island.
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I think this indicates either that Gaels were a remarkably unimaginative people or that they tended to give very literal answers to English speaking surveyors.

"I say, Scottish chappie, what do you call that big rock over their?"

"Sgeir mhor"

"I say, and what about that big rock over there?"

"Sgeir mhor"

"Curious concidence. Now, how about that big island?

"Eilean mor"

"Jolly good. And that little one?"

"Eilean ban"

and so on and so on.
 
In the Firth of Forth, there are two groups of rocks: Cow and Calves and Hen and Chickens. There's more than one Dog Rock and an islet called Haystack.
 
At the north end of the Sound of Mull opposite Tobermory there are rocks called Big Stirk and Little Stirk. Stirk is a dialect word for heifer or bullock. Rocks in most places seem to be named because of their appearance or after a person or vessel which has hit them. Also at the north end of the Sound of Mull are the New Rocks, which appear under the same name in a replica 18th Century chart I have on the wall, so not that new.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I think this indicates either that Gaels were a remarkably unimaginative people or that they tended to give very literal answers to English speaking surveyors.

"I say, Scottish chappie, what do you call that big rock over their?"

"Sgeir mhor"

"I say, and what about that big rock over there?"

"Sgeir mhor"

"Curious concidence. Now, how about that big island?

"Eilean mor"

"Jolly good. And that little one?"

"Eilean ban"

and so on and so on.
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It's not just in Scotland. There are several River Avon's in England - and Avon is just a Celtic word for river. And then there's Pen-y-ghent where both parts of the name mean mountain!
 
Bit of a drift, but between Portugal and Spain in the south is the Rio Guadiana, which means river, river, river! The phoenicians came and called it "ana" meaning river, then came the moors, hearing it called ana then called it the "wadi" ana then the Portuguese decided to call it the Rio Quadiana.
 
First, one tiny, pedantic correction - it's toponymy, not toponomastics. Sorry, but place names and their study featured largely in my former work; I've even published on the subject.

While we're thinking about naming, it's worth noting that culture (in the broadest sense) influences place names a lot, not merely by influencing the name itself, but also the nature of the named feature. For example, we tend to attach the name of a mountain to it's peak, but there are other potential naming conventions that could be used. Naming marine features is particularly susceptible to this; because I'm part of the community of Antarctic Scientists, I call the waters south of the Antarctic Convergence (around 50-60°S) the Southern Ocean; it's an important biological and oceanographic distinction. But the IHO, with a different focus, doesn't recognize that division and regards the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans as extending to Antarctica.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
First, one tiny, pedantic correction - it's toponymy, not toponomastics. Sorry, but place names and their study featured largely in my former work; I've even published on the subject.
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AntarcticPilot said:
It's not just in Scotland. There are several River Avon's in England - and Avon is just a Celtic word for river. And then there's Pen-y-ghent where both parts of the name mean mountain!
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Wiki suggests that the 'ghent' may refer to a border or edge. I asked Mrs H if she could think of a Welsh connection with 'ghent', but she could not.
 
If you want interesting place names, try NZ. For example, Taumata whakatangi hangakoauau o tamatea turi pukakapiki maunga horo nuku pokai whenua kitanatahu.
In English it is "the place where Tamatea, the man with the big knees, who slid, climbed and swallowed mountains, known as 'landeater’, played his flute to his loved one".
None of your boring river river river or mount mountain mount.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
It's not just in Scotland. There are several River Avon's in England - and Avon is just a Celtic word for river. And then there's Pen-y-ghent where both parts of the name mean mountain!
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I'll see your Pen-y-ghent and raise you Ardtornish Point - meaning Height Height Promontory Promontory.
 
newtothis said:
If you want interesting place names, try NZ. For example, Taumata whakatangi hangakoauau o tamatea turi pukakapiki maunga horo nuku pokai whenua kitanatahu.
In English it is "the place where Tamatea, the man with the big knees, who slid, climbed and swallowed mountains, known as 'landeater’, played his flute to his loved one".
None of your boring river river river or mount mountain mount.
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Not quite as complicated, but Galloway (where I live) has lots of fun names, having been at various times Welsh, Norse, Gaelic, Scots and English speaking. As a result there are anglicised versions of Gaelic versions of Norse names and so on. For example, you can do a walk, if you want, in the Dungeon Hills, passing Rig of the Jarkness and Point of the Snibe on your way to the Range of the Awful Hand, returning via Shalloch on the Minnoch and Benyellary.
 
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