Top tip re towing your dinghy

[lustyd]

and there is a risk of collision

This is important though, there is no risk if you have a conversation and intentions are clear.
Your point is very good in isolation, but we don’t have to sail in isolation!

 

[benjenbav]

There’s often a pipe smoking, breton cap wearing old codger who doesn’t know it’s Cowes Week meandering across our start line at the wrong time. If his hair wasn’t white before, it will be afterwards.

Mine is… and I’m only 25.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Mine is… and I’m only 25.

Cruising past Cowes at the beginning of August can do that to a man. The XOD fleet might be the worst, but most others are pretty eager on the start line.

 

[Refueler]

At the time I assume yes. Given what you incorrectly said before I assume you’re rusty. You obviously were more focused on the ship part than the yacht part at that time, but the wording clearly is intended to ensure when crossing that boat speed is consistent and tide affects everyone the same way.
If you’re unaware, yachts will usually cross faster on a non-perpendicular heading.

Rubbish .... complete and utter balderdash.

 

[Refueler]

The TSS used to be way more frightening, but ships have been emasculated and now only do 15knots. 25 was not uncommon 20 years ago.

Ships speed has been reduced for many - but the 25kt Container Ships are still out there. Tankers and Bulk Carriers were 14 - 15kts for Charter Speeds ... and they still build to that .. but fuel costs and general market has meant most will make 12 - 13kts with 14+ only when instructed by Charterers who then accept the increased fuel useage.

 

[lustyd]

Rubbish .... complete and utter balderdash.

Care to elaborate, or just ranting? Sailboats are well understood, so the fact they can cross faster at other angles isn‘t up for debate.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Ships speed has been reduced for many - but the 25kt Container Ships are still out there. Tankers and Bulk Carriers were 14 - 15kts for Charter Speeds ... and they still build to that .. but fuel costs and general market has meant most will make 12 - 13kts with 14+ only when instructed by Charterers who then accept the increased fuel useage.

Well, they can't do 25kn in the TSS, as that would present a collision risk.

 

[lustyd]

Well, they can't do 25kn in the TSS, as that would present a collision risk.

This feels like the Internet equivalent of a red laser and a cat.

 

[ylop]

This is important though, there is no risk if you have a conversation and intentions are clear.
Your point is very good in isolation, but we don’t have to sail in isolation!

That’s exactly how many a collision has arisen! The guidance from the experts is clear - never rely solely on your VHF to avoid a collision, you may have misunderstood, they may have misunderstood, you may have identified the wrong vessel, they may have identified the wrong vessel.

FYI a number of the colregs apply even when there is no risk of collision (including the whole section about TSSs!).

 

[lustyd]

AIS makes that very unlikely. In our case we watched them change course immediately so zero danger. In the same situation I’d do the same again

 

[Refueler]

Well, they can't do 25kn in the TSS, as that would present a collision risk.

There is no rule or otherwise that says they cannot .... but ships will generally reduce speed to manoueverable Sea Speed rather than Full Away Sea Speed ...
The speed will be chosen to allow the ship to safely navigate the TSS .....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There is no rule or otherwise that says they cannot .... but ships will generally reduce speed to manoueverable Sea Speed rather than Full Away Sea Speed ...
The speed will be chosen to allow the ship to safely navigate the TSS .....

It would be more difficult these days to belt though quickly, it would involve a lot of overtaking, was my thought there. The speed chosen is surely to match others and maintain distance from other ships? I appreciate that there’s no rule. There is no speed limit on the water anywhere outside port jurisdiction. People do 100kn in the Solent. And make a lot of noise about it, too.

 

[Refueler]

That’s exactly how many a collision has arisen! The guidance from the experts is clear - never rely solely on your VHF to avoid a collision, you may have misunderstood, they may have misunderstood, you may have identified the wrong vessel, they may have identified the wrong vessel.

FYI a number of the colregs apply even when there is no risk of collision (including the whole section about TSSs!).

Too true sadly ...

There was a very good example of VHF failure ... even though the two vessels were talking to each other and not mistaken identity.

South Afrrica Coast ..... the two sister VLCC's of V-Ships ... one loaded coming south from the Gulf ... the other in ballast going north to Gulf ...

The two OOW's having a wonderful chat on the VHF until one rammed the other just ahead of the accommodation ...... (note that official reports tend to not mention this fact - but having been somewhat involved - I can confirm that this was a contributory factor - the two vessels in poor visibility etc).

I was an Officer with Shell at the time and we were placed on standby to be ready to assist with the Ship to Ship transfer of the Crude Cargo .... luckily the other Shell L class VLCC (our sister ship) managed to accomplish the transfer and we were released to resume voyage.

 

[Refueler]

It would be more difficult these days to belt though quickly, it would involve a lot of overtaking, was my thought there. The speed chosen is surely to match others and maintain distance from other ships? I appreciate that there’s no rule. There is no speed limit on the water anywhere outside port jurisdiction. People do 100kn in the Solent. And make a lot of noise about it, too.

The ColRegs rely on what is termed : Good Seamanship and Prudence.

I can give a good personal example of this.

Aural Examination for 2nd Mates FG .... DoT examiner asked me what I would do if I observed a Tug and Tow with prescribed towing lights on the port bow ? Examiner also added that the event was in open waters.

Now the ColRegs say that unless Tug and Tow show additional restricted manouevre lights / shapes - they should act as a power driven vessel and give way.
But my answer was > I would make a bold and obvious turn to pass well astern of the Tug and Tow - making the prescribed sound signal.
Examiner was intrigued and asked why I would give up my stand on position ?

Simple ... Tug and Tow even though not showing restricted signals would have more difficulty manouevring than I .... so I would act in Good Seamanship and Prudence - to let him continue on course and for me to easily alter ... my alteration being bold and early / large enough to be obvious to the Tug and Tow of intention.

Examiner praised me for choosing a seamanlike solution and accepted fully my answer. In fact he added that most candidates chose the Stand-On position which he agreed with my logic was not the best.

 

[Refueler]

AIS makes that very unlikely. In our case we watched them change course immediately so zero danger. In the same situation I’d do the same again

A very costly mistake to assume that all have AIS .. that even those with AIS have it actually on !!

In todays world of sanctioned ships - it is actually more common than many realise for AIS to be turned off ....

Its actually quite interesting that on reading yachting forums - that yotties appear to spend more effort reading AIS than ships do ! Seriously - no joke.
Of course integrated anti-collision radars etc have AIS input as well as the radar returns ... and OOW has the ability to interrogate any blip he sees IF AIS is being transmitted by that blip ... but most OOW make their ColReg decisions based on visual or just pure radar ... rarely based on AIS - its at best supplemental info.

 

[Refueler]

Because colregs doesn’t apply when there isn’t a collision situation, obviously. It’s prudent to do anything to avoid one happening including talking to other humans. Not popular these days but communication can achieve all sorts of wonders.

WRONG !

The ColReg term is a mis-named term as it encompasses all aspects of vessels on the water outside of Local Byelaws. Conduct in shipping lanes .... lights .... shapes ..... sound signals .... use of radar and other aids while proceeding .... at anchor .... just to mention a few.

The ColRegs when it comes to your misunderstand of "collision situation' actually is "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" ......

Its actually an interesting term "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" .... because its a common question posed to cadets / officers as they progress through their Tickets ..... what do you consider is a safe passing distance or what do you consider as "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" ??
The typical answer often was - multiple compass bearings of the other vessel over a period to determine if "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" exists ... some answers even tried to add actual distances .... saying 1 mile open sea etc.

The best answer I heard came from an old school DoT examiner :

Why would you choose to be so close when you have the whole ocean to play in ?

Then added :

A "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" only exists because two idiots want to be in same bit of water at the same time ...

I don't think anyone can argue with that !!

(Note - The compass bearing part of answer was expected by examiners and you would fail if you did not state that).

 

[Refueler]

It would be more difficult these days to belt though quickly, it would involve a lot of overtaking, was my thought there. The speed chosen is surely to match others and maintain distance from other ships? I appreciate that there’s no rule. There is no speed limit on the water anywhere outside port jurisdiction. People do 100kn in the Solent. And make a lot of noise about it, too.

It is normal for also the Engine Room to be on Stby .... which means ER's have personnel down there to make sure engine commands are executed if required - even the Unmanned ER's - (near all ships today have Bridge Control of Engines - but Engineers man ER as a precaution).

 

[lustyd]

A very costly mistake to assume that all have AIS .. that even those with AIS have it actually on !!

In todays world of sanctioned ships - it is actually more common than many realise for AIS to be turned off ....

Its actually quite interesting that on reading yachting forums - that yotties appear to spend more effort reading AIS than ships do ! Seriously - no joke.
Of course integrated anti-collision radars etc have AIS input as well as the radar returns ... and OOW has the ability to interrogate any blip he sees IF AIS is being transmitted by that blip ... but most OOW make their ColReg decisions based on visual or just pure radar ... rarely based on AIS - its at best supplemental info.

No need to assume, I was there and could see everything happening in glorious sunshine and good visibility as well as everyone having AIS transmitting.

 

[lustyd]

WRONG

It’s not wrong at all, boats are free to sail about most of the time and as long as they don’t get into a collision situation then the rules on avoidance don’t come up. We quite often pass on the “wrong” side of other vessels including ships because it’s often easier to turn early and clearly and not get near.
Your post even has the same conclusion!

 

[Refueler]

It’s not wrong at all, boats are free to sail about most of the time and as long as they don’t get into a collision situation then the rules on avoidance don’t come up. We quite often pass on the “wrong” side of other vessels including ships because it’s often easier to turn early and clearly and not get near.
Your post even has the same conclusion!

You continue to make the same error ....

The Rules are not just Collision Avoidance .... they cover the wide aspect of water borne movement outside of Local Byelaws.
Of course when no "Risk of Close Quarters Situation" - you are at liberty to choose whatever path you wish ... no one is adenying that ... but you imply that the Rules only apply when vessels get near each other .... WRONG.