Tom Cunliffe's Passage Planning

[Lucy52]

A good explanation with a worked example to show how to apply it. Not a classroom presentation of a list of things that you can read in a text book. A bit compressed in places presumably to get it all in the time allotted. His hint at the end that beating home would another ball game also illustrates that a change of wind or weather may require a change to your plan. Though he did mention to plan bolt holes in passing. Not covered bar one slide in my DS theory not at all in the DS practical.

 

[STATUE]

I know that the vast majority of us here know all about Passage Planning. But there are a few new forumites on here that are fairly new to yachting and also its a good reminder for many of us about Passage Planning. The link below is a simple passage planning on youtube by Tom Cunliffe on a passage from Southampton Water to Chichester Harbour, an area that I know well, and I am sure hundreds of people here know it well too. The reason why I like this video is because there are no frills and it is just simple, quick and effective way to plan a short passage of this kind.

The best passage plan I ever had from Tom Cunliffe was - "At night, lights are unambiguous " . That did it, off to Cherbourg single handed, leaving Portland at midnight, ensuring I had plenty of daylight to find the French coast !

 

[lustyd]

"At night, lights are unambiguous " .

Terrible advice. The entrance to Dublin has two identical lights within a few miles, the only difference being brightness. Depending where you are a rock will block one or the other so it's extremely easy to be misled by lights

 

[capnsensible]

Terrible advice. The entrance to Dublin has two identical lights within a few miles, the only difference being brightness. Depending where you are a rock will block one or the other so it's extremely easy to be misled by lights

Include a credible pilotage plan as part of your passage. Hey presto! Problem solved.

 

[westernman]

It seems that lustyd means to affectionately parody TC's well-known preference (which I share) of old-fashioned, well-made things whether quill pens or gaff cutters..although Tom treacherously sold his last pilot cutter and bought a newfangled bermudan, leaving the armchair gaffers without a figurehead!

 

[lustyd]

Include a credible pilotage plan as part of your passage. Hey presto! Problem solved.

No it isn't. When it's pitch black with misty rain and two identical lights are present within a couple of miles there's very little a pilotage plan will do for you as you approach from the sea. GPS maybe, but aside from that it's just a case of going slowly and keeping a good watch

 

[westernman]

Terrible advice. The entrance to Dublin has two identical lights within a few miles, the only difference being brightness. Depending where you are a rock will block one or the other so it's extremely easy to be misled by lights

I have been caught out once relying on "unambiguous lights." I checked on the chart, I saw the green light at the entrance to the port, turned to enter the port between the green and red lights. Exactly according to my passage plan.
Then bang! I ran into the harbour wall.

They had added an extra green light before the end of the harbour wall. This was not on the chart, and from my position it was the only green light which was visible.

They have now made that into a white light.

I guess I was not the only one who was caught out.

 

[capnsensible]

No it isn't. When it's pitch black with misty rain and two identical lights are present within a couple of miles there's very little a pilotage plan will do for you as you approach from the sea. GPS maybe, but aside from that it's just a case of going slowly and keeping a good watch

Great challenge with your trusty echo sounder at the ready, plan sketched, clearance bearings worked, tide heights sorted on yer curve......and a plan b to go somewhere else. Practice makes perfect. ?

 

[Gary Fox]

I wonder if you have the Irens 'Westernman'?

 

[westernman]

I wonder if you have the Irens 'Westernman'?

I think there were 4 little Westernmans, one of which was Tom Cunliffe's, and my one which is bigger. (51ft LOD, 67ft LOS).
All designed by Nigel Irens and Ed Burnett.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Terrible advice. The entrance to Dublin has two identical lights within a few miles, the only difference being brightness. Depending where you are a rock will block one or the other so it's extremely easy to be misled by lights

+1

 

[lustyd]

Great challenge with your trusty echo sounder at the ready, plan sketched, clearance bearings worked, tide heights sorted on yer curve......and a plan b to go somewhere else. Practice makes perfect. ?

So both lights are on the approach to land so echo sounder will do literally nothing to help. The only thing to take a bearing on is a light when it's dark and misty, and you can't identify which light because they have identical characteristics. You can sketch all you want but if you can't see anything other than a light your artwork is worthless. Plan B is awesome until you realise that turning to starboard for Howth takes you into the rocks at the entrance to Howth...because you're already in Howth.
Practice has nothing to do with it, if what you see gives you no way to know where you are then your only two options are 180 turn out to deep water until morning, or use a GPS to determine where you are and then work out which light it is based on bearing. Of course, at that point you may as well just pilot on GPS if you're not turning for the ocean.

 

[capnsensible]

So both lights are on the approach to land so echo sounder will do literally nothing to help. The only thing to take a bearing on is a light when it's dark and misty, and you can't identify which light because they have identical characteristics. You can sketch all you want but if you can't see anything other than a light your artwork is worthless. Plan B is awesome until you realise that turning to starboard for Howth takes you into the rocks at the entrance to Howth...because you're already in Howth.
Practice has nothing to do with it, if what you see gives you no way to know where you are then your only two options are 180 turn out to deep water until morning, or use a GPS to determine where you are and then work out which light it is based on bearing. Of course, at that point you may as well just pilot on GPS if you're not turning for the ocean.

There is always a way. Find a suitable contour and follow it.

But don't take my word for it, try it if you don't believe it.

 

[lustyd]

Follow it where, into the rocks? You're sounding more foolish on every post!

Regardless of your nonsense, lights at night are not unambiguous, as has been shown by various posts including my own.

 

[capnsensible]

Doesn't seem like you get this. I'd be delighted to show you. Doing this stuff has been my job for over 20 years. I'm sure that you are just as good at yours as I am at mine. ?

 

[lustyd]

You've yet to explain anything that would suggest two lights with the same characteristics in close proximity is not unambiguous so there's not a lot to discuss until you at least try. So far you've explained that using things that you can't see would solve the issue (lights are still ambiguous) and that a depth sounder would save you despite the two locations being the same depth and both having many rocks which you wouldn't know the location of until you knew where you were. Lights still ambiguous.

Years are a poor way to measure experience. For instance in twenty years you've never experienced ambiguous lights, whereas I did so within my first three of serious sailing (now many years ago), so from that perspective I am the more experienced sailor.

 

[capnsensible]

You've yet to explain anything that would suggest two lights with the same characteristics in close proximity is not unambiguous so there's not a lot to discuss until you at least try. So far you've explained that using things that you can't see would solve the issue (lights are still ambiguous) and that a depth sounder would save you despite the two locations being the same depth and both having many rocks which you wouldn't know the location of until you knew where you were. Lights still ambiguous.

Years are a poor way to measure experience. For instance in twenty years you've never experienced ambiguous lights, whereas I did so within my first three of serious sailing (now many years ago), so from that perspective I am the more experienced sailor.

Cling on to the light thing if you wish. But the fact remains that no matter how you think you can't identify the lights, a properly prepared and executed pilotage plan will see you in safely.

But again, if you don't want to take any advice, that's entirely up to you. If you want, send me the relevant chart. I will show you how to do it. ?

 

[lustyd]

And still no explanation You're literally arguing that lights are unambiguous by saying you need other things to identify location. I don't think TC would have argued this long and it's originally his statement!

If you want to look at the chart it's the entrances to Dublin and Howth. I don't recall which lights it was, but I feel like it was green flashing markers from distant memory. As I said the characteristics were identical and the lights were the only thing visible in the conditions after a long sail and in poor and windy conditions. It didn't affect us at all because we just checked with GPS, but had we been using the lights we would very likely have had problems. This was in addition to the new energy saving light bulb fitted at Howth allegedly visible for 8NM but we could barely see it from the marina.

 

[capnsensible]

And still no explanation You're literally arguing that lights are unambiguous by saying you need other things to identify location. I don't think TC would have argued this long and it's originally his statement!

If you want to look at the chart it's the entrances to Dublin and Howth. I don't recall which lights it was, but I feel like it was green flashing markers from distant memory. As I said the characteristics were identical and the lights were the only thing visible in the conditions after a long sail and in poor and windy conditions. It didn't affect us at all because we just checked with GPS, but had we been using the lights we would very likely have had problems. This was in addition to the new energy saving light bulb fitted at Howth allegedly visible for 8NM but we could barely see it from the marina.

I'm not saying anything of a sort! ?

What I am saying is prepare and use a considered pilotage plan. I think if you read back, you may discover it's you going on about lights.......

However, part of the joys of sailing include managing your crew, the vessel and your navigation when conditions are poor. Being unflustered with that is very satisfying. Even if, say, one of your crew has broken off the gps aerial using it as a handhold whilst vomming in a gale off Trafalgar. Turns boys to men. Oh I pit stopped in dun thingy once on a delivery years ago. The biggest hazard was Guinness hangovers next day. ?

 

[lustyd]

You're clearly in a different conversation to the rest of us, so I'll let you mumble on in the corner on your own.