Tohatsu MFS9.8A3 UL 9.8HP 4STR UL (£2,141.41p) in westerly centaur with dead engine

Nigel-in-Oxford said:
Dylan,

So in your thought experiments the comparison needs to be new with new not old inboard with new outboard. Of course cost is is a consideration.
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When doing the costs remember to add in a) the cost of designing, constructing and inserting (and then maybe refining) a well-engineered outboard well, and b) the extra depreciation when the time comes for you – or your heirs and successors – to sell.
 
Nigel-in-Oxford said:
Dylan,
You are letting your experiences of an old knackered inboard cloud your judgement. I played with hanging a 6HP new Suzuki on the aux bracket and it moved the boat (Swin Ranger) well but was very inconvenient. The new Beta 20 is fantastic, smooth, quieter than the old single pot Yanmar. I get no diesel smells, starts first time. All I looked for in a new outboard, but a bit more difficult to nick!
So in your thought experiments the comparison needs to be new with new not old inboard with new outboard. Of course cost is is a consideration.
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you are dead right

a new inboard is ideal

and the price of the new engine and having it fitted was......?
 
If you could get a decent Centaur with a knackered engine for £3000 you could re engine it for £6000 and then have a £9000 Centaur with a brand new engine.

All the over priced ones around the £10,000 mark may have been re-engined but how long ago and what is the rest of the boat like?

I can't decide whether to re-engine mine and until it breaks I won't have to decide, 5 years putting it off and counting.

An outboard in a well is a non starter. If you have to have an outboard stick it on the back, if it's just an auxilliary to get get on a berth it doesn't matter where it is.

Or buy a Tonic.
 
Hi Dylan
A mate of mine had loads of expensive trouble with an old Volvo in his Centaur he finallly gave up on it and fitted an outboard bracket to the stern as funds did not stretch to a replacement inboard.
The boat was used for a few years like this with a 9.9 hp and a different prop from standard. I sailed with him a number of times and it was fine.
But the last time we hit some heavy weather and it was not good hanging over the back starting an underpowered engine that only just got us out of trouble.
He has now fitted a Beta and never looked back.
The piece of mind that knowing you have a reliable engine at the turn of a key is beyond money.
I realise that cash is a big consideration but there must be some re-engined centaurs coming to market as time goes on.
Many do have knackered engines but I know when I was looking the deal maker was either a price so low as to allow for an engine replacement or a recently replaced unit.
 
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I think you should fit it amidships. Under the dining table would be ideal.

dylanwinter said:
Is anyone out there capable of making a few educated guesses at the physics

here are the dimensions of the Centaur

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/tonyandgi/Technical/Centaur26-brochure-p6.jpg

with this engine it is an ultra long shaft Tohatsu saildrive 9.8

having lived with 6hp on Katie L then I am reasonably confident that 9.8 hp applied in exactly the right place will shift a Centaur

http://www.tohatsu-uk.net/products/photo/images/mfs9.8-2009.jpg

where does the hole need to be?

how deep does the trunking have to be

I want to vector this engine 45 degrees port and stb

no need to tilt - it will stay in the water all the time I am aboard

no need for remote controls - it will be right at my feet in the back end of the cocpit I assume

It will be noisy of course

now what about the maths of taking out the old engine and replacing it with some balast - less of it and further forward I assume

the well will create some loss of bouyancy and it would be great if the sea did not come up the hole

Dylan

PS this is the page of the bloke who did the Pageant

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/bloody-nora-westerly-pageant/

I promise not to copy his paint job
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aquaplane said:
If you could get a decent Centaur with a knackered engine for £3000 you could re engine it for £6000 and then have a £9000 Centaur with a brand new engine.

All the over priced ones around the £10,000 mark may have been re-engined but how long ago and what is the rest of the boat like?

I can't decide whether to re-engine mine and until it breaks I won't have to decide, 5 years putting it off and counting.

An outboard in a well is a non starter. If you have to have an outboard stick it on the back, if it's just an auxilliary to get get on a berth it doesn't matter where it is.

Or buy a Tonic.
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Having had a look atsome of the current adverts for Centaurs even the most expensive are still running on original engines, so paying a few grand more does not give you a new engine. Perhaps the thing is to just buy a cheap one tart it up and sell it on and use the profit to re-engine your next one
 
maxi77 said:
Having had a look atsome of the current adverts for Centaurs even the most expensive are still running on original engines, so paying a few grand more does not give you a new engine. Perhaps the thing is to just buy a cheap one tart it up and sell it on and use the profit to re-engine your next one
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that sounds like a way of working on two boats and missing out on a lot of sailing time

and for me I want to maximise my sailing time

I am also a paid up member of the inboardophobia society

it is an irrational fear of the sort of bills inboards can throw at innocent sailors

I could of course put an outboard on the back

but that would be hard to get at and I have lived with outboards on transomes on eboats and sonatas - both have an alarming habit of parting company with the water

The outboard well in the Minstrel is forward of the rudder

just as this would be

I agree agree that *I might have an unsaleable boat at the end - but then I would have bought a boat that was almost unsaleable

I would still have a good engine I could sell

if it works then I would have a boat that is as tough and commodious as a Centaur

the price on the water is £3,000 for the boat and £2,000 for the engine

under power it might not be quite as good at motoring as the re-engined £9,000 boat with its heavy low revving diesel

Of course I wiill go deaf as a result of sharing a cockpit with a 9.8hp four stroke engine
 
maxi77 said:
Having had a look atsome of the current adverts for Centaurs even the most expensive are still running on original engines, so paying a few grand more does not give you a new engine. Perhaps the thing is to just buy a cheap one tart it up and sell it on and use the profit to re-engine your next one
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There are plenty of Centaurs with new engines; my chum bought a very good late model with a brand new 3 cylinder Nannidiesel last year, for an amazingly good price - though I suspect he was very lucky too, right place at the right time.

On the other hand Tam Lin of this parish has a Centaur with u/s original engine I think he'll be seeking to sell as he just bagged the bargain Anderson.
 
if its flat calm I should think it would push the boat fine. Into a head sea/wind forget it. Dylan, thats a hell of a lot of money to spend on brutalising a centaur. If your example centaur with a knackered engine is 4 grand, you can definately buy one with a good engine for 6. thats still cheaper than your outboard solution, requires no work and will be a much butter prospect when it comes to selling it.

Im really not trying to be argumentative here Dylan. I spend ages looking at your blog and really enjoy reading it. you seem like a really nice bloke. But to be frank, you really need to get this obsession of a centaur with an outboard out of your head. its unhealthy. If thats what you really want, go ahead and do it, it will 'work' to a degree but never be a patch on a diesel. When you find yourself in a such minority with most of the world having a different opinion (including the designer and builder of the centaur) to you, thats when you need to step bank and conclude that its your view that isnt the right one.

outboards make sense for trailer sailers. as do they for performance lightweights like cork ODs and J/80s. but for a 3 ton fixed keel cruising yacht -thats designed around having an inboard- they make no sense at all.
 
Meant to say Dylan,

If I cant convince you of the practical disadvantages of what you are proposing, might I suggest you look at the fiscal side of it.

Your plan falls down hugely here:

1) Your £2100 OB will after say 4 or 5 seasons of being flogged (and believe me it will be pushing a centaur) be worth virtually nothing.

2) you will then be left with a centaur with not just a knackered IB, but a gaping hole in it and a knackered OB. Like it or not statistics tell the truth and as you can see from this thread most people would much rather an IB in a centaur. your modified centaur will in turn be worth even less than a centaur with just a knackered IB. Your only option to then use or sell it will be to buy a new OB for another couple of grand to then try and sell your boat to a very small cadre of wierd people who have as you put it 'inboardaphobia'. Most people have 'financialsuicideaphobia' instead.

3)you need to understand that even rebuilt or even well used but servicable IB diesel will have far more remaining hours of useful life than a brand new outboard, in the context of pushing a displacement cruiser. I would be prepared to bet everything that I own, that my 3500 hour 1979 perkins (never rebuilt) would outlast a brand new outboard, given the same use on my displacement cruising yacht.

4)based on the above over say a 5 year plan, given low interest rates at the moment, it would be financially better for you to buy a 6 grand centaur -one sold in my club recently - with a very new nanni diesel - on borrowed money for part of the value, and sell it after 5 years for similar to what you paid for it. Because if well serviced, given normal use 5 years will have made little difference to that nanni.

If I had a pound for every time I thought i'd bought my last boat..... .....you are no different, your looking at your 3rd one already. and when you get it you'll soon be looking for your fourth. You have to consider the financial aspect of anything you do to/with a boat and think about the resale.

good luck either way
 
dylanwinter said:
I agree agree that *I might have an unsaleable boat at the end - but then I would have bought a boat that was almost unsaleable

I would still have a good engine I could sell

if it works then I would have a boat that is as tough and commodious as a Centaur

the price on the water is £3,000 for the boat and £2,000 for the engine

under power it might not be quite as good at motoring as the re-engined £9,000 boat with its heavy low revving diesel

Of course I wiill go deaf as a result of sharing a cockpit with a 9.8hp four stroke engine
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So, your idea, £5000 on the water. After a couple of years, £1000 for the engine and disposal costs for the, now totally unsaleable, Centaur.

I reckon you could have a Beta 13.5, self installed for a lot less work than building a well, for £4K (£4.5K max). After a couple of years a saleable Centaur worth probably £7K - £8K.

I know which one I'd go for.
 
contessaman said:
3)you need to understand that even rebuilt or even well used but servicable IB diesel will have far more remaining hours of useful life than a brand new outboard, in the context of pushing a displacement cruiser. I would be prepared to bet everything that I own, that my 3500 hour 1979 perkins (never rebuilt) would outlast a brand new outboard, given the same use on my displacement cruising yacht.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that an outboard in a Centaur is a good idea, but my experience is that they are more long lasting than you make out. My 2.5 tonne 30' boat is powered by its original 13 year old 10hp 4 stroke Yamaha. Passed the 30,000 mile mark this year. Most of it was sailed of course, but that's still a lot of use for the engine. Apart from a new fuel pump diaphragm at 4 years, nothing has ever gone wrong. My first boat's Honda 4-stroke from 1981 is still going.
 
worse than third boat

contessaman said:
Meant to say Dylan,

If I cant convince you of the practical disadvantages of what you are proposing, might I suggest you look at the fiscal side of it.

Your plan falls down hugely here:

1) Your £2100 OB will after say 4 or 5 seasons of being flogged (and believe me it will be pushing a centaur) be worth virtually nothing.

2) you will then be left with a centaur with not just a knackered IB, but a gaping hole in it and a knackered OB. Like it or not statistics tell the truth and as you can see from this thread most people would much rather an IB in a centaur. your modified centaur will in turn be worth even less than a centaur with just a knackered IB. Your only option to then use or sell it will be to buy a new OB for another couple of grand to then try and sell your boat to a very small cadre of wierd people who have as you put it 'inboardaphobia'. Most people have 'financialsuicideaphobia' instead.

3)you need to understand that even rebuilt or even well used but servicable IB diesel will have far more remaining hours of useful life than a brand new outboard, in the context of pushing a displacement cruiser. I would be prepared to bet everything that I own, that my 3500 hour 1979 perkins (never rebuilt) would outlast a brand new outboard, given the same use on my displacement cruising yacht.

4)based on the above over say a 5 year plan, given low interest rates at the moment, it would be financially better for you to buy a 6 grand centaur -one sold in my club recently - with a very new nanni diesel - on borrowed money for part of the value, and sell it after 5 years for similar to what you paid for it. Because if well serviced, given normal use 5 years will have made little difference to that nanni.

If I had a pound for every time I thought i'd bought my last boat..... .....you are no different, your looking at your 3rd one already. and when you get it you'll soon be looking for your fourth. You have to consider the financial aspect of anything you do to/with a boat and think about the resale.

good luck either way
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bless you for your good will, concern for a bloke you have never met and best advice

yacht ownership is not new to me as my needs have changed so has the boat

I am currently on my fifth yacht

pointless counting sailing dinghies/canoes

too many to count/remember accurately

I hope to be meeting up with the bloke whop welled the Pageant and maybe have a go on his boat

I will be sure to video it

D
 
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AngusMcDoon said:
I'm not saying that an outboard in a Centaur is a good idea, but my experience is that they are more long lasting than you make out. My 2.5 tonne 30' boat is powered by its original 13 year old 10hp 4 stroke Yamaha. Passed the 30,000 mile mark this year. Most of it was sailed of course, but that's still a lot of use for the engine. Apart from a new fuel pump diaphragm at 4 years, nothing has ever gone wrong. My first boat's Honda 4-stroke from 1981 is still going.
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thats as may be and a credit to japanese build quality. But how much are they worth now? I bet they would have depreciated heavily in the first 5 years.
 
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