To survey or not to survey?

[galileo]

First post and I'm worried that it's a daft noob post, but then that would be an accurate description of me, so I'll press ahead.

I'm looking at a (grp) motor sailer to buy, it's 50 years old and about £20k. It has had an insurance survey done 4 years ago, which I have a copy of, which reads as all is well. I'm questioning if much of note on a vessel of that age will have occurred in the last few years, and I can save myself what will probably end up being a grand of survey and haul out charges? Not a lot of money on a £50k plus boat, but a significant percentage at this price, and I've broken my hard limit as it is.

 

[ylop]

First post and I'm worried that it's a daft noob post, but then that would be an accurate description of me, so I'll press ahead.

I'm looking at a (grp) motor sailer to buy, it's 50 years old and about £20k. It has had an insurance survey done 4 years ago, which I have a copy of, which reads as all is well. I'm questioning if much of note on a vessel of that age will have occurred in the last few years, and I can save myself what will probably end up being a grand of survey and haul out charges? Not a lot of money on a £50k plus boat, but a significant percentage at this price, and I've broken my hard limit as it is.

I see your point but if you've not seen the boat out the water - do you know what state the anodes are in? the sea cock/skin fittings? the rudder bearings? the prop and shaft? even the state of the antifouling.

Will it suddenly have developed osmosis? no.

 

[John 32i]

At £20k I would take my chances without a survey.

You will still need to lift out for some basic checks for peace of mind though.

 

[KevinV]

If you are indeed a noob then definitely have it surveyed, and have a mechanic check the engine over. Lots can happen to a boat in 2 years, even just neglect could render the engine scrap, the rudder electrolysed away, or the prop turned into tin foil. £20k on a boat that you then discover needs another 10k spending is a horrible way to start boating - spend the money on the survey, hopeful all will be well and you'll feel it was a waste of money, but there's every chance of it saving you a lot of grief. If you're already at the high end of your budget you really can't afford to buy a pup.

 

[DanTribe]

Can you get it insured without a survey? Some insurers require a survey every few years so you may hit a snag there.

 

[Egret]

Never a waste of money to have a full survey, engine and electrics check - will need it together with gas and electrics certificates for full insurance - 50 year old boat (1975?) at £20K is getting to the stage of new engine, rigging, sails, mast?, cooker, electrics, keel bolts?, anodes, bunk cushions, WC, osmosis, corrosion, electrolysis, seacocks, cracking etc - everything - easily another £20K+ - so the surveyor can tell you what has been done and what hasn't, so you can budget over the next few years - If all is OK - cheap for peace of mind - if not, walk away - I did once - lots of others in the market - at that age though there will always something to be done.

If you are somewhere you can dry out on hard standing on a tide, may not need a lift out for the survey, or maybe can arrange a single lift and stay in the slings for an hour or two to minimise cost - conversely might want to have the boat put in the water to test the engines.

What type of boat is it, and where are you?

Extent of work to plan for may depend on if you are just looking for a floating beach hut to go out in sheltered areas on fine days - as ours seems to be - or if you are thinking of doing offshore passages.

 

[ylop]

Never a waste of money to have a full survey, engine and electrics check - will need it together with gas and electrics certificates for insurance -

You won’t usually need to prove condition of engines, or provide gas or electric certificates for insurance of a seagoing vessel in the UK. There are insurers who won’t insist on a survey but will expect you to have inspected the boat out the water.

 

[SaltyC]

A good surveyor could justify his costs In reduced offer - justified work but not previously identified.

 

[Sailing steve]

At £20k I would take my chances without a survey.

You will still need to lift out for some basic checks for peace of mind though.

Yes this.

At twenty grand take a knowledgeable friend and look at loads of different boats to get a feel for a good deal, Google everything you can and go in with eyes wide open. Do your own survey - buy a damp meter, spend a couple of hours hitting keel bolts and seacocks and looking for rusty fittings and going all over the hull with a ball peen hammer listening for the hollow clunk of failed laminations. Look at everything like sails and engines that's a potential money pit.

Most importantly of all ask yourself is this really the boat for me right now and will it still be the boat for me in 10 years time? If the answer is yes the it's easy to accept it'll need a big chunk of cash to keep but if the answer is no than just walk.

 

[galileo]

Thank you for all of your varied thoughts! I'm not a complete boat noob, had a couple of small (5.7m) motor boats over the past 14 years, but they were all quite cheap and maintained by myself. Maybe I won't mention the time I launched into the estuary to find that my Teleflex steering had seized solid and I could only go around in circles, saved by the aux outboard.

I had originally planned on getting something like a Broom 32 motor boat, but, the horizontal Perkins engines and the cost to actually run them (or similar) made it uneconomical and I pivoted to, even though not popular here, on something like a Colvic Watson. I say like as I ran into affordability issues for an actual Watson, the aft cabin lengths were either dogs or far too nice and so out of my league.

The previous report was quite thorough and pragmatic, included hull moisture readings, giving the overall condition as better than average for its age. It did point out that the standing rigging date could not be verified, so factored in that would be on a shopping list.

That's a good point made that the cost of the survey could be recovered by a saving on the asking price, obvious in hindsight.

Certainly good food for thought, I'm glad I asked now,

 

[Tranona]

Suggest you attend when the survey is being carried out as the surveyor can go over what he finds with you at the time, rather than just relying on the written report. You will learn a lot about the boat that will stand you in good stead during your ownership. Buying a 50 year old boat is just the starting point for an ongoing maintenance and improvement project so it helps to understand your starting point with the assistance of an "expert"

 

[Egret]

So can you get fully comprehensive insurance in the UK on a £20K boat without a survey, and get claims paid out if the worst happens?

Or is it just third party - especially if you don't have records to cover such elements as rigging being less than 10 years old - gas installation report, engine service record etc - third party only is a bit of a risk on £20K - or maybe partial cover, which I had until the standing rigging was updated -

Agree doing thorough checks before commissioning survey, so that hopefully the survey is a formality,

Can't see an owner letting a potential buyer tap over with a ball pein hammer (#9) but a light tap with a knuckle works - either rings or sounds dead if cracked - or bends if pushed hard - and need to look for fine cracks in stress areas, but not the end of the world - can be strengthened.

Foam sandwich issues you probably need a surveyor to assess how bad

 

[ylop]

So can you get fully comprehensive insurance in the UK on a £20K boat without a survey, and get claims paid out if the worst happens?

Yes. It certainly narrows your choices though.

Or is it just third party

No

- especially if you don't have records to cover such elements as rigging being less than 10 years old - gas installation report, engine service record etc - which is a bit of a risk on £20K - or maybe partial cover, which I had until the standing rigging was updated - surveyor said it was probably OK but insurance company wouldn't accept without replacement and probably wouldn't cover consequences of an engine break down or any other failure if there wasn't a record of up to date servicing, which they ask for each year.

well I have a survey on mine and neither the surveyor nor insurer asked for gas or electrical reports. The surveyor saw the engine running and it move in and out of the hoist but no specific engine report was requested by insurer. I got quotes form two other big name insurers - neither of which suggested they were expecting further reports either.

Agree doing thorough checks before commissioning survey, so that hopefully the survey is a formality, but I am speaking as someone brought up with boats from a very early age, watching and helping with wooden boat building and GRP fitting out - not a noobie - I would still have a survey for reassurance - and agree helpful to attend with the surveyor - can learn a lot.

I’m not disputing that a survey is a good idea, especially for someone who hasn’t seen what “dodgy” and “ok” look like - a lot of people talk about taking a knowledgable friend, but I’d suggest that many friends who seem more knowledgeable than a newbie might actually not spot problems a surveyor would. At 20K you really only want to survey a boat you are expecting to buy not kick the tyres on, but I would be expecting to pay lift and hold + survey fee, not then needing to pay electrical or gas surveys on top (unless perhaps there is something so obviously bad the surveyor flags it up).

I do think given the expense and risk with an engine (especially on a motor sailer) that if it is 50yr old that I would want someone to look at it - although if it is spotless, runs well and has good service records maybe I’d be happy without. It would be helpful to see it start from cold.

 

[Blueboatman]

I’ve always thought a survey was a waste of money
Yet it always finds enough to pay for itself.
And stand you in good stead.
And satisfy insurance requirements proactively.
And and and . A second pair of experienced eyes is jolly useful in beginning to unwrap what you’re buying into.
So it’s a no brainer win win really realistically imo

 

[mrming]

Agree with others that get a survey if think you’ve found “the one”. It’s a buyer’s market in that price range in the UK right now, so the OP is unlikely to get gazumped. As Tranona suggested, attending the survey is a great idea. I’m on my second older, project-ish yacht, and in each case I’ve spent more than the purchase price getting them up to my standard. Nothing wrong with that, but not overpaying and avoiding a boat with major issues is the preferred starting point. At that age they’re all projects at some scale unless someone fastidious has refitted it in the last 5 years.

 

[galileo]

I'm good with mechanical things, do all my own car maintenance, and rebuild old engines so with a "venerable" BMC diesel I can hear straight away if it's knackered! I've been convinced that it's a good idea for a survey. I'm going to guess that it's best to avoid using the same person that did the insurance survey? There's two I've been recommended, DC Marine and MW Marine, this is on the West coast of Scotland.

 

[mrming]

Yes try and use someone different if possible.

 

[ylop]

I'm going to guess that it's best to avoid using the same person that did the insurance survey?

I think a fresh pair of eyes is not a bad thing. That said, someone who knows the boat or knew its condition 4 yrs ago might also have some insights - “that does/doesn’t seem to have got any worse; they’ve still not done Xxx”

There's two I've been recommended, DC Marine and MW Marine, this is on the West coast of Scotland.

I’ve no experience with DC marine but Mathew Willis (who I believe is MW) did a thorough job for us. He found things which would have been wrong since manufacture (and easily put right) as well as the one more serious issue which had been flagged in the last two surveys and ignored (we have now put that right). He spotted something in a photograph when he was preparing the report and actually made an extra return visit to the boat (as his expense) to see if it was something he has missed - it wasn’t and was just the lighting in the photo. The broker had never dealt with him before but seemed to think he’d done a good job compared to many who focus on the dates on the fire extinguishers etc! There’s nothing which we have discovered since which we said “how did the surveyor miss that”. He didn’t do sea trials for us (extra cost) but he gave me a list of things to check/look at when actually underway. He won’t do a detailed rigging inspection or examine the sails in fine detail. If the boat was somewhere convenient for a rigger and or sailmaker to pop along and talk you through the likely future costs that would be very helpful for a planning perspective.

 

[C08]

I think having a pre-purchase survey has both up and downsides. I had a survey on my boat which did not identify any major problems BUT did throw up a number of things that meant that the buyer was then committed to have these done as a requirement of his insurers. Some of these things to me were debatable e.g an aloft standing rigging survey despite the rigging being only 7 years old, the engine (25HP Yamaha only 4 years old) should be serviced by a Yamaha Main Dealer despite my willingness to show self service records of impeller, oil, filter and gear oil change by me each year and only 80 hours usage. There were other thing more to do with the surveyor covering his back and more debatable such as an electrical safety check (untidy wiring,), a gas safety check, the bilge pumps in each bilge to be replaced with larger pumps despite my having a large roving bilge pump, So a collection of things none individually a deal breaker but collectively enough to deter a buyer having to do all that to satisfy the insurance co.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

With a boat of that age the surveyor will certainly find things wrong which will need attention for insurance so you should be prepared for that, you didn't say the size of the boat but £500 upwards plus haul out costs are a significant part of the £20K which you say you have pushed. We all say it's hours that matter on an engine and a 50 year old one will have plenty on unless it's been reengineer and a surveyor will simply pass the buck and recommend an engine survey by an engineer. Similar for the rigging, he won't inspect the sales and will only switch on and off instruments. If you are happy with the boat and have enough confidence in your own ability to judge condition and you can obtain insurance without survey request a test sail and pay attention to the engine, cold and hot start look for leaks or signs of.