To survey or not to survey?

galileo said:
First post and I'm worried that it's a daft noob post, but then that would be an accurate description of me, so I'll press ahead.

I'm looking at a (grp) motor sailer to buy, it's 50 years old and about £20k. It has had an insurance survey done 4 years ago, which I have a copy of, which reads as all is well. I'm questioning if much of note on a vessel of that age will have occurred in the last few years, and I can save myself what will probably end up being a grand of survey and haul out charges? Not a lot of money on a £50k plus boat, but a significant percentage at this price, and I've broken my hard limit as it is.
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It's almost a scam with old boats. You get a survey, he scratches around for a day and does a cut and paste review of the boat, any comeback on him is very difficult. However, it does give you some reassurance on basic structure if you are wary.

It's choregraphed like a medieval court dance.
The seller knows he will be hit for at least £500 for trivia, or £1000 for things of marginal importance - you know this and the surveyor knows this. The only real value to the buyer is that if a good surveyor picks up some old structural damage of large significance, then you can back out.

One alternative is to check everything works on the water look knowledgeable and put in an offer of £17 / £18k without survey.
But be sure to say that it is subject to you seeing the boat out of the water. This would save you cash, you probably want to take the boat out for basic work anyway and you have scope to bring in a second opinion if anything looks dodgy.

Be prepared to leave it to simmer, in the present market do not rush to buy.

.
 
Lots of good information in the above . All I can add is the one boat I purchased without survey, I did have a two year old valuation survey copy , which did satisfy my insurance ( they just wanted within last ten year's survey) .
My second boat purchased with survey, did leave me feeling that money could have been better spent, as I had viewed both afloat and on the hard. Still I would have needed to produce some kind of valuation for my insurance I expect.
Good luck whichever decision you make
 
I have heard this question many times, If you know what you are looking at or can pressgang somebody who knows what they are doing to look at it with you crack on. But the average yachtsmans level of knowledge is pretty low & most will miss stuff.
As for a 4 year old insurance survey done for someone else? It is irrelavant & not worth the paper it is written on.
I have seen many members of our club buy boats, often without survey, a goodly proportion get caught out with major faults that may cost thousands to put right.
I have seen ballast keels falling off, broken keel matrixes, Wobbly bilge keels on Westerlies, Even statements that Westerlies have been professionally reinforced when they hadnt.
I have seen boats sold with existing "insurance surveys" that stated "Inspected out of the water at X location" when i knew for a fact the surveyor inspected the boat in a mud berth half a mile away & never even stepped aboard.
If i was spending 20k of hard earned cash I would spend out on a survey. If it goes pear shaped you have recourse on an old survey commissioned by anyone you have zilch.
 
Keith 66 said:
I have heard this question many times, If you know what you are looking at or can pressgang somebody who knows what they are doing to look at it with you crack on. But the average yachtsmans level of knowledge is pretty low & most will miss stuff.
As for a 4 year old insurance survey done for someone else? It is irrelavant & not worth the paper it is written on.
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We were bitten with our first boat, a Centaur, relying on a 3 or 4 year old survey stating it had been epoxied. A couple of years after purchase, the hull looked like the craters on the moon. It had been filled and epoxied but not dried out first. After extended drying out period, it was then epoxied properly, cost approx 30 years ago IIRC, was around £3k.
 
Graham376 said:
We were bitten with our first boat, a Centaur, relying on a 3 or 4 year old survey stating it had been epoxied. A couple of years after purchase, the hull looked like the craters on the moon. It had been filled and epoxied but not dried out first. After extended drying out period, it was then epoxied properly, cost approx 30 years ago IIRC, was around £3k.
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Would a survey have picked that up, though? Presumably you'd seen the boat out of the water and it looked fine. I assume that's all a surveyor would do.
 
Mark-1 said:
Would a survey have picked that up, though? Presumably you'd seen the boat out of the water and it looked fine. I assume that's all a surveyor would do.
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One would hope he would do far more, particularly if the previous treatment was known. First thing would be a moisture check and from what Graham says that would have probably rung alarm bells.
 
Tranona said:
One would hope he would do far more, particularly if the previous treatment was known. First thing would be a moisture check and from what Graham says that would have probably rung alarm bells.
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I agree a surveyor may well have picked it up at the time. Afterwards, I was told I could have had the survey assigned to me for a fee, in which case I may well have had a claim against the surveyor. All water under the bridge now, have had next 3 boats surveyed but only for hull and rig integrity, don't need to pay a surveyor to check electricals work or, the anchor is crap.
 
Tranona said:
One would hope he would do far more, particularly if the previous treatment was known. First thing would be a moisture check and from what Graham says that would have probably rung alarm bells.
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Presumably at that stage the moisture was under a barrier layer of smooth looking epoxy? It only broke out later?
 
wingcommander said:
Lots of good information in the above . All I can add is the one boat I purchased without survey, I did have a two year old valuation survey copy , which did satisfy my insurance ( they just wanted within last ten year's survey) .
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I too would offer this as a further advantage; ask the surveyor for a written valuation. Most insurers will insure for what you pay, other may have limits based on age/size.
The surveyor may even be prepared to say "and up to..." subject to further works being undertaken.
Either way, you have proof of the status of the boat and it's value.

Not sure what happens on a pre-purchase survey if the surveyors valuation is wildly different to the price :ROFLMAO:
 
I have also paid to have an older survey re-assigned to me when buying a low value boat, I was then able to use the survey for insurance purposes.

If you'd had a good look yourself and you're prepared to take a fair old hit if you've missed something important then okay, but do not rely on it for any relevant information and do not expect to make a claim against the surveyor if things go pear shaped.

The survey would have been initially carried out for the benefit of the existing owner, even if for insurance purposes and will read very differently from one instructed by a purchaser. Any defects that do become apparent that were not on the original survey - well 4 years are a long time and you have no hope, bob hope but no other hope of pinning that on anyone other than yourself.

If you are going to buy the boat and it's at the top of your limit, then realistically you are going to have to swallow the cost of a lift and survey or look for another vessel. Any unforeseen defects will put you into a world of pain which you may not be able to easily escape.
 
There seems to be a fair amount of waffle on the surveys that I have seen. With an old motor boat, all I'm really interested in is that the hull is structurally sound with no osmosis, the engine has been regularly serviced and runs well, and that the interior has not got fresh water leak rot. Throw in sails and I'm winging it now!

It is at my limit, I really don't want to over commit on savings and part finance for something that is, to put no finer point on it, frivolous. Then if you don't do daft things like buy a boat sometimes, then what's the point in everything?! I've always wanted to get a bigger boat than my Shetland 570, which would zoom around at a great rate of knots (literally) but ultimately go nowhere. I'm looking at 3 boats at the moment, a Nauticat, Neptunian and Coaster 33. The later has my greatest attention for some reason.
 
galileo said:
There seems to be a fair amount of waffle on the surveys that I have seen. With an old motor boat, all I'm really interested in is that the hull is structurally sound with no osmosis, the engine has been regularly serviced and runs well, and that the interior has not got fresh water leak rot. Throw in sails and I'm winging it now!

It is at my limit, I really don't want to over commit on savings and part finance for something that is, to put no finer point on it, frivolous. Then if you don't do daft things like buy a boat sometimes, then what's the point in everything?! I've always wanted to get a bigger boat than my Shetland 570, which would zoom around at a great rate of knots (literally) but ultimately go nowhere. I'm looking at 3 boats at the moment, a Nauticat, Neptunian and Coaster 33. The later has my greatest attention for some reason.
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Apart from the osmosis everything you list can be ascertained from close inspection followed by a sea trial. For the osmosis you would need to lift and visually inspect. I would also be looking at the decks for any sign of water ingress and softening.
 
galileo said:
There seems to be a fair amount of waffle on the surveys that I have seen. With an old motor boat, all I'm really interested in is that the hull is structurally sound with no osmosis, the engine has been regularly serviced and runs well, and that the interior has not got fresh water leak rot. Throw in sails and I'm winging it now!

It is at my limit, I really don't want to over commit on savings and part finance for something that is, to put no finer point on it, frivolous. Then if you don't do daft things like buy a boat sometimes, then what's the point in everything?! I've always wanted to get a bigger boat than my Shetland 570, which would zoom around at a great rate of knots (literally) but ultimately go nowhere. I'm looking at 3 boats at the moment, a Nauticat, Neptunian and Coaster 33. The later has my greatest attention for some reason.
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Well all I am going to add to that is:

Those three manufactures will have built to different quality and price points in the market - but the cost of labour and parts to repair or renovate will be the same per hour😳
So go in ‘heads up’ and aware . And, of course, good luck!

EDIT: And if any one of those 3 happens to have a screwed down teak deck- DONT! 😄
 
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Tranona said:
The moisture meter will see through that, although it is common to remove the antifouling locally. That is the whole point of testing the hull - to find out the moisture content of the GRP lamination.
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From what I understand it can also detect the water in a tank inside the hull, giving alarm indication that moisture is detected in the structure.
 
galileo said:
There seems to be a fair amount of waffle on the surveys that I have seen. With an old motor boat, all I'm really interested in is that the hull is structurally sound with no osmosis, the engine has been regularly serviced and runs well, and that the interior has not got fresh water leak rot. Throw in sails and I'm winging it now!

It is at my limit, I really don't want to over commit on savings and part finance for something that is, to put no finer point on it, frivolous. Then if you don't do daft things like buy a boat sometimes, then what's the point in everything?! I've always wanted to get a bigger boat than my Shetland 570, which would zoom around at a great rate of knots (literally) but ultimately go nowhere. I'm looking at 3 boats at the moment, a Nauticat, Neptunian and Coaster 33. The later has my greatest attention for some reason.
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Regardless of survey, if you buy an old boat at £20k, then it will be pure luck if you don't end up spending another 10k on it over the next few years. If I were you I would factor that in, and if you get lucky, you have saved money. If you spend up to or just over your comfort limit buying the boat, you are going to feel screwed down the line having to find the costs of unexpected repairs or replacements.
 
steve yates said:
Regardless of survey, if you buy an old boat at £20k, then it will be pure luck if you don't end up spending another 10k on it over the next few years. If I were you I would factor that in, and if you get lucky, you have saved money. If you spend up to or just over your comfort limit buying the boat, you are going to feel screwed down the line having to find the costs of unexpected repairs or replacements.
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In my admittedly limited experience, all boats no matter the type, age or size are money pits If I wanted to make money then to misquote the old joke, I would not start from here! I'm not buying as an investment, and fully expect to have to find a bit more than annual maintenance in the future.
 
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