Time for regulation!

jimi

jimi

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If some one works on my boat I want to know that they are competent, understand the implications of what they are doing and not a bunch of bloody cowboys .. is there not some form of certification required .. if not, I for one would strongly support any supplier who made a move in that direction .. the word apprenticeship springs to mind!

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
Having read an earlier post about the incompetence of a corgi registered fitter, - do you really think that your scheme would make any real difference. However if it was properly run, and incompetence resulted in loss of accreditation, things might change.

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Nice sentiment Jimi, but can we sort builders (of the house variety) out first please!

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.
 
Same issue .. I can recall when a bricklayer had to serve a 5 year apprenticeship including day release.

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
Sadly, there is no method of guaranteeing correct service or repairs.
Even in the automobile industry, appointed franchised (and checked) dealers are not necessarily responsible to the original equipment manufacturer.
If, say, Beneteau were to appoint service dealers, they would not take responsibility ( except in highly public rows) for their agents (dealers) repairs.
If we were to adopt the aircraft methods, we would have a licensed engineering situation, where self certified work would not be approved, and you would have to subject the boat to a rigorous 'MOT' on a regular basis, with ALL work identifed in a log, and all spare parts used or replaced certified from an approved source (and that includes the engine oil), which would be traceable to origin.
In the first instance a suitable body for certification (such as the Civil Aviation Authority) would need to be identified and suitably empowered, and then an approved set of routes to engineering certification established. Thus could already 'experienced' engineers gain approval. A training scheme for 'apprentices would see the first one emerge in 2008 if we enrolled tomorrow, so it wont help you today.
As you can imagine, the further ramifications would possibly be that your boat would be restricted from performing certain voyages, just like a single piston plane is restricted in over water flying, or performing to Visual Flight/Intrument Flight Rules.
No doubt the insurance companies would welcome such a scheme, as it would better ensure survey quality, and thus lead to more accurate risk assessment, no doubt in the upward direction.
Your yacht would have to be compulsorily registered, and also it is a dead cert you would have to prove yourself fit to navigate such a dangerous item. So no beer for the 8 hours prior to filing your flight plan.
I suggest suing the culprits, extract whatever you can from the soggy experience, pass on what nuggets you can glean from it all, and leave the rest of us to fend for ourselves, as we have for many years.
If I am to remain cheap creek crawling in 3 grands worth of tupperware, please let the dog lie where it is.

Finally, I do hope you nail the b*st*rds


Jim
(even more skint as I have an e-bay Yeoman now! :-)

<hr width=100% size=1>Second Chance - First Love. Ah well, Windex it is then. Hopefully it will all work when launched....
 
Can remember when the City & Guilds provided a well worthwhile indication of competence without going completely over the top.

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
But according to your Bio you do nothing! After a 10 year apprenticeship I'm sure you do it very well! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Joe

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"If we were to adopt the aircraft methods, we would have a licensed engineering situation, where self certified work would not be approved, and you would have to subject the boat to a rigorous 'MOT' on a regular basis, with ALL work identifed in a log, and all spare parts used or replaced certified from an approved source (and that includes the engine oil), which would be traceable to origin"

Lets look at it again in term of costs:

Hike in Diesel fuel costs
Lights tax
Possible "Annual mot" for boats
Mandatory registration
"Certified" spares

Not counting fuel costs, I could easily see the rest adding £1000+ to the cost of keeping a boat each year.

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I would suggest small boat work by sole traders or small companies calls for mostly practical skills backed up by morals in asking for fair price for work honestly done.
There are some very good people out there who meet these requirements, but sadly a lot that do not.
I do not have an answer to how the good ones can be supported without excessive regulation and cost but I look for word of mouth, talk through the work proposed etc, but I have advantage in my engineering background here.

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There are apprenticeships in Britain today. Our division has 3 electronic and at least two mechanical engineering apprentices out of about 60 employees. I suspect the problem is that it is up to the employer to take them on, and pay their wages while they are at college, and most entrepreneurs are only interested in short term profit, not investing in their industry. The other problem is small businesses (one man bands) who cannot contemplate taking on a apprentice. These are the folk we often employ to work on our boats.

That leaves the usual method, which is to employ a less experienced man so he can learn on the job. Your job.

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Just sit here designing systems for boats, watching the boats sail up / down the river, and try and get mine in the water.

Brian

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Yes, City & Guilds used to indicate that either the employer or "apprentice" had a desire to achieve a standard of training. Although there are various initiatives for personel training, government (especially this one) are shifting so much work, responsibility and cost onto employers, that those employers cut back where possible. NVQ and GNVQ (unfortunately even my kids' friends refer to it as "Generally Not Very Qualified") should be the norm here. Trade associations are the people to encourage employers to train, so I would hope that the BMF are taking an active role here?

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I agree there is a problem of the cost to the employer, who often sees his investment walk out of the door as soon as the apprenticeship has been completed. Also todays 'apprentices' are on very different courses to those in the 70s - far less practical skills and how to repair skills are taught now. It is now biased more towards compoent replacement techniques.

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As late as the 60's it was common for apprentices to be sacked on completion of there time, they were told to go and get experience else were, after 5 years they always had a job waiting for them back at the firm. Our firm had about 200 plus apprentice's, then there was craft apprentice's as well. That covered from a toolmaker, to a designer with a degree, and commercial as well. They were good times, £1/18/6 after stoppages, for 32 hours at work, 1 day and 2 nights at tech.


Brian

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As a result of the reception for of our boater's courses a couple of years ago we started to investigate the possibility of setting up a decent "trade" training course for engineers. At that time we wrote to all the companies that appeared possible users in the Thames Trade Association (whatever its called) and also the BHCF etc.

This resulted in only one positive response.

The next problem was finding a suitabel qualification. We could have "basterdised" a BTEC Engineering Operations qualification to make it fit teh course we proposed, but it jsut did not feel as if that was what was needed. In any case it was likley to be superceeded within a year or two to a qualification that inluded on site assesment (more about this later).

BMF were working on a qualification, but aftera year it did not apperae to be going anywhere.

Basically all govenment funded (trade) training has to broadly conform with NVQ requirements. These now appear to demand asesment of practical skills in the workplace (when NVQs first came out we could simulate this in college). This. at first site, appears to be a good idea, but when one considers trades that need courses to draw from a region or nationally to make numbers viable one begins to see just how uneconomic it becomes to send an assessor half way across teh country to do one assesment. Our experience is that the companies or their supervisory staff are not willing to get their own assesor qualifications.

FWIW the College a few miles away from us, who used to offer such courses, was forced to give them up (I was told) because of the NVQ assesment problems.

I get several enquiries a year from people who want to get properly qualified in marine maintenance, but untill this year, no college offered a suitable course (we are NOT talking marine engineering here, but boatyard engineering etc). Now it apperas East Riding College do offer some type of qualification, but I fear from odd snippets of info, that its biased to wards outboards.

Untill the qualification and funding regimes start to account for courses that have to recruit over a large area little will change, the ebst you can look for (as far as engineering is concerned) is a qualification from the Vehicle, Plant, or Agricultral enginering trades - plus lots of experience on boats.

Tony Brooks

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Research the area on the needs of industry/commerce etc. Having identified relevant content, methods and learning outcomes, develop a private evauation and assessment course. Approach a body such as QCA etc for validation. Market the programme to schools and colleges.

I had a similar problem with kids classed as 'school refusers' - kids who would not attend school for a variety of reasons. Whist a lot of these kids were a waste of space (in terms of wanting to learn), I noted a large proportion of them did want to learn and study but the school environment was not conducive to their learning needs. Therefore, they left school, joined a 'training course' at the local tech etc where the instructors where the were a load of feckless 's^(ts', had difficulty stringing a sentence together themselves never mind a syllabus, and were more interested in collecting a cheque at the end of the month...

One such 'tutor' even had the audacity to refuse a child's coursework because, and I quote.. 'he used words that a kid from that part of town wouldn't know how to use!"...I have found great satisfaction in tutoring these kids of varied abilities in subjects ranging from from developing basic literacy and numeracy skills through to GCSE, A' Levels and university courses. To me, the attraction of education is to get kids to develop concepts, ideas and understanding using words that they would not normally use!

It never ceases to amaze me that the government can spend millions, nay billions, in dead-end courses just to get kids off the unemployment register and people like you cannot even get support, even in principle, to develop a focussed, relevant vocational qualification.

BTW I 'adapted' the NEAB GCSE Nautical Skills 1479 syllabus to help these kids develop self-confidence and self-esteem and, to me, is one of the more progressive educational programmes in the circus of what passes as a National Curriculum...anyone with kids and involved in boating should get a copy - it is very informative.

Good luck.

Rant over...

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Having 17 years experience in both applied Marine eng and leisure craft eng, I feel that today there too many people who think that just because they know a little of one thing they can apply it across the entire industry. I started my apprenticeship in Durban harbour, the busiest in the southern hemisphere, working on engines ranging from supertankers to small leisure craft.

Regulation would be a good thing but the government would apply servere charges to the boat user to cover the cost and there are many people who have time served experience who would be put out of work due to yet more red tape.



<hr width=100% size=1>http:\\mysite.freeserve.com/leisure_marine_prep
 
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