Time for a new sail?

[jonathanhsm]

My old French mainsail of uncertain origin kind of "hinges" at the end of the battens as you can see in picture (where it's reefed) I can suffer fairly vicious weather helm in strong gusts and am sure this is a contributor ...
Is it time for a new sail .. recut ... not bother?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Do you have tapered battens?

might help, and give you another season or two?

 

[Koeketiene]

Is it time for a new sail .. recut ... not bother?

They're getting on, but I think there should still be some life left in them.
Weatherhelm: fiddle around with the traveller a bit, might well solve/alleviate your problem.

 

[Rossynant]

Is it front end of battens you worry about, or leech curling inwards?
Sail blown a bit... may be too deep. Battens can be lengthtened forward (and tapered also) so this part will be straightened, and leach curl can be eased by just letting (loosening, whatever the right term) on few seam ends - this is little work and should make a difference as rear part is now producing quite a side force. It should lie flat. More work, like recutting, probably not worth it on old sail; depends on prices naturally.

 

[jonathanhsm]

tapered battens

Not sure if the battens are tapered or not I'll check - if they're not how would tapered help? And what about full length battens ? Could that be an option ?
Manythanks

 

[rob2]

I've seen people sailing with much worse sails! It's likely that a sailmaker can do a little work to give you a couple of years before your disatisfaction surfaces again. Start putting some cash aside - the time for replacing sails is when your unhappy with what you have and have the funds to do something about it.

New sails will allow you to point higher, reduce heeling, improve speed and respond better to trim so cope better in a range of windstrengths. Just such a shame it doesn't last forever...

Rob.

 

[jonathanhsm]

Thanks Rossynant - I guess it's both - it's the weather helm I don't like - so will try alleviating both leech curl and "batten hinge" - there is a leech line so I could let that right off, and as you say lengthen/replace the battens with tapered ones ...as for loosening the seam ends not quite sure how I go about that?

And where do I get tapered battens - ?

Is this a sailmaker job?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Not sure if the battens are tapered or not I'll check - if they're not how would tapered help? And what about full length battens ? Could that be an option ?
Manythanks

if they're tapered it can help avoid the 'hard edge' you are getting... even just a small taper might help.

Full length battens would also probably help, but you'd need a sailmaker's advice on practicality... you might end up spending a load of cash (you'd need batten cars etc) for very little extra life... and the sail cut might not suit it...

FWIW, I agree with Guapa... i've seen a lot worse!

 

[Rossynant]

More elastic front end would curve with the sail. Those look stiff, too stiff anyway Put flexible in and this may be enough. My guess is the cloth has already been deformed there; You can set the sail without battens and see how the canvas sets, maybe it' OK; if there still will be a kink on profile visible - with a bit longer battens this kink will be supported and straightened; little work. Or shorten the battens, that is much easier and may work too.
Giving proper profile aft to this sail is also important, and opening some seams at leech to flatten rear part may be enough to help the helm. That's just opinion from the photo, but it's visible - look on seams below battens, they should be as straight as battens normally. This curve works backwards in fact, producing force acting sideways and also placed far aft.
Btw - it's interesting if the canvas is blown in place off battens. Cause if not - it's possible to put batten pockets in new place, on those seams that stretching is visible, to flatten them.


Full battens on old sail IMHO too much bother, unless You like them for some reason. Hard to say if this sail is worth investing in, you know it better.

Sorry, didn't read your post above:
I'm not specialist and not current, just getting back to sailing, so not sure what material now is best for battens. If those are wooden - just sand them from about half forward, thinning progressively to the front end, feel how much they are flexing; simple. Front end should bend easily in fingers. Trial and error - put them in and see if they conform to the profile of canvas and if there still is a crease. Soft plastic also may be sanded, or just put some quite elastic stuff in (ready made battens should be sold in stores, fiberglass or such) and see.

Leech curl is caused by too tight a leech tabling (tabling is stronger and does not stretch so much as canvas) - may be loosening line will help, you'll see, but seem cloth is already deformed there (stretched just before end tabling). Maybe sailing with leech line loose for some time will help it elongate some. It is possible with some patience and keen eye to trim the sail back to better shape, so I wouldn't hurry to cut it
This is 'sailmaker job' in fact - properly it's done with sail suspended horizontally, so you see the profile. And the whole leech tabling is cut away, then made anew (or just the affected part like upper half), seams are opened at ends and sewn back a bit loosened; sometime it's enough to just pull sail to shape and put on a new tabling, which is then a bit longer to conform to stretched canvas.
But it can be made simply, if shabby, by cutting the seam open at end (those two up between battens) from the point where the curve starts and resewing in corrected, usually more "loosened' position. Not too much or the leech will be too long and flapping to leeward This is by eye and feel - mark somehow the right starting point on the seam first, by looking on it when sailing. As tabling on leech must also be cut and lengthened it's necessary to put patches on this places then, strongly made. It may even be enough to cut tabling at those seams, set the sail (better to hung it horizontally), stretch and see if it flattened, then patch up the tabling back.

Poor man's way to prolong the use of old sail
Nowadays you ought to take computer program, plotter, laser cut the canvas panels as designed in 3D - and then dispose of the stuff the moment it change shape. But I like those 40-years-old Ratsey & Lapthorns and Jeckells, shame

 

[jonathanhsm]

Many thanks all - I'll start with tapered or flexible battens - and see how it goes from there.
If anyone knows a good source for these or a DIY solution let me know. Obviously I have the old ones as templates.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

are the old ones glass or wood?

if wood, then a few mins with a power sander would do it....

don't overdo it though....

 

[jonathanhsm]

I'm ashamed to say I don't know - as I've never taken them out!

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I'm ashamed to say I don't know - as I've never taken them out!

doubt you're alone!

You might even get away with sanding a glass one.... worst case is a single new batten.. and at that length, is only a few quid for a replacement... most decent chandleries stock them.

If you do sand glass, cover up and use a mask.... the dust is evil!

To taper a batten, you only taper roughly the last third, and don't take it down to any more than approx half thickness... hope that helps!

 

[jonathanhsm]

Yes many thanks.

 

[wilkinsonsails]

Don't recommend sanding down pultruded GRP battens..The glass strands are broken off in the sanding and are more prone to split once the surface of the batten is disturbed .
Apart from that the glass splinters are very painful.!
Cindy

 

[jonathanhsm]

Point taken ... Ouch!

 

[William_H]

Main sail problems

The hook in the leach may simply be that someone has tightened the leech cord too much. This is a cord that runs at the leach of the sail and will emerge from the leach to an arrangement for tightening the cord.
(Or I have seen a leech cord go right to the top to a pulley and down the luff to a cleat. )
Common is a small plastic jamb cleat sewn onto the leech or on mine a pocket of velcro with velcro attached to the leech line. If you do have a leech line then try loosening it. It is there to tighten the leech to reduce trailing edge flutter. (also used on jibs)
The crease at the end of the battens may be alleviated by tapering battens as said. However you could try reducing the end pressure on the battens if this is adjustable.
You should also try increasing outhaul tension on foot. When reefed this may require moving the reef line pulley further aft. Also try mast increasing bend and halyard tension.
I don't think that a bad mainsail when replaced will improve weather helm much. Try reducing jib area or reef as you have done. I think mostly the weather helm comes from too much heel. (overpowered).
Buying a new mainsail might be like buying a new car more done from emotion than pure logic. Yes eventually you might need a new sail but the old one may do for a lot longer yet. You know you need a new mainsail when the cloth starts to fail and rip easily. good luck olewill

 

[charles_reed]

Difficult to tell from the photo, but I think the batten poke is caused entirely by too stiff a batten.

If they're wood shave them down at the inboard end which should be the thin bit, if glass-fibre go for a softer one entirely (again the thin bit in).

Full length batten sails have a very different cut and converting really isn't on.

Playing with outhauls and leech cord might mitigate the problem, but won't cure the problem of too heavy a batten

 

[jonathanhsm]

Now there's another nautical phrase I'd never heard before : "batten poke" many thanks I'll extract one from the boat today and examine. Again thanks all.

 

[r_h]

I don't think that a bad mainsail when replaced will improve weather helm much. Try reducing jib area or reef as you have done. I think mostly the weather helm comes from too much heel. (overpowered).
Buying a new mainsail might be like buying a new car more done from emotion than pure logic. Yes eventually you might need a new sail but the old one may do for a lot longer yet. You know you need a new mainsail when the cloth starts to fail and rip easily. good luck olewill

But a new sail has less draft, and the draft is further forwards, so it produces more drive and less heel. Weather helm is therefore increased, in some cases quite considerably.

While on occasion I have been forced to hang on to old sails until the cloth is at the end of its structural life, I have always disliked doing so - by this stage the sail shape is invariably seriously compromised, which effects the handling characteristics of the boat just as much as it effects speed.