Tiller or wheel for bluewater?

[john_morris_uk]

The rudder has a tiller. Remove the tiller and add a wheel steering system. Want a plan B is wheel steering fails? Just put the tiller back in the hole .

“Just put the filler in the hole” is exactly what we do with our emergency tiller. And our boat is centre cockpit with a spade rudder.... the ‘hole’ is under a screw in plate on the deck.
Same on an aft cockpit boat I sailed many miles in. The emergency tiller went into a hole in the deck to the rudder that was supported by a large skeg.
I can’t see the point you are making?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well I have crossed oceans and mostly singlehanded and my preference is for tiller on a transom hung rudder, rudder of course being protected with long keel or substantial keg. Add a decent wind vane self steering system and its pretty hard to beat for simplicity, ruggedness, less to go wrong, easier to fix and does not drain your batteries.

Fine on smaller boats. Larger boats actually need a wheel.
The long keel preference is (IMHO) a bit of an old time myth thats been argued over in these pages before.
And I’ve crossed oceans too so we both speak from experience.

 

[geem]

I don’t understand the question. If you are blue water sailing you don’t need ever to touch either a tiller or a wheel. You only need an autopilot.

You would be surprised how many bluewater sailors have both an autopilot and wind self steering. We have both and make plenty of use of the wind self steering.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You would be surprised how many bluewater sailors have both an autopilot and wind self steering. We have both and make plenty of use of the wind self steering.

I agree. I’ve done lots of blue water miles and our own boat also has an electric auto-pilot (motor drive to its own quadrant on the rudder stock below deck) plus a wind vane system.

 

[Dogone]

You would be surprised how many bluewater sailors have both an autopilot and wind self steering. We have both and make plenty of use of the wind self steering.

That’s a different question and a different situation. To choose a windvane, autopilot or both as opposed to what type of steering to choose. I agree a windvane is a great device. Zero power.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

You would be surprised how many bluewater sailors have both an autopilot and wind self steering.

Or, indeed, an autopilot on their wind self steering which is a clever hack I saw done. Uses less electricity.

 

[RupertW]

That’s a different question and a different situation. To choose a windvane, autopilot or both as opposed to what type of steering to choose. I agree a windvane is a great device. Zero power.

I think it is related as long distance sailing is not about tiller or wheel at all - those are for day sailing and harbour work.

I’m not going down the windvane route simply because I’m fine with autopilot (even if it fails and I can’t fix it with spares etc. ) for a few days sail - for example last year from Gib to Lanzarote, but for the big trip across to the Caribbean I would be concerned as we are just two people so that would be grim to hand steer. Therefore we looked at wind vanes but for just one trip it seemed a lot of expense and hardware across our front door, so opted for the more flexible soft solution of having a couple of extra crew for the crossing itself.

 

[geem]

Or, indeed, an autopilot on their wind self steering which is a clever hack I saw done. Uses less electricity.

Most wind self steering systems have the option for the connection of a tiller Pilot. We have never bothered since a powerful below decks autopilot is a far better device. We also carry a complete spare autopilot. Tillerpilots have a tendency to fail, they are vulnerable to damage and they seem to let water in.
A friend of mine that sails singlehanded uses a tillerpilot on a n Aries. The tillerpilot is below decks and he uses a morse cable to work the Aries

 

[SteveA]

for me the clincher would be the ability with a wheel to have the ability to turn on the autopilot instantly at the touch of a button for short periods - perhaps when you want to go forward to adjust something - I don't think you can do that with a tillerpilot which is a slight faff to attach each time- unless things have changed in the past few years.

With have a tiller and below deck actuator so, yes you can!

 

[Blueboatman]

Most wind self steering systems have the option for the connection of a tiller Pilot. We have never bothered since a powerful below decks autopilot is a far better device. We also carry a complete spare autopilot. Tillerpilots have a tendency to fail, they are vulnerable to damage and they seem to let water in.
A friend of mine that sails singlehanded uses a tillerpilot on a n Aries. The tillerpilot is below decks and he uses a morse cable to work the Aries

That is ingenious, using a morsecable from a waterproof place?

Learn something new everyday from people out there ! Thank you


And one could change course without going aft on deck to the tiller pilots control buttons ?

 

[Blueboatman]

Re Hallberg R’s whipstaff

I grew up with tillers. I love the hands free bit steering with ones knees.
Or standing up on the cockpit seat to get a better view, with one foot on the helm!
And being able to shove the helm over fast
And feel what it is doing wrt reversing under engine. Or tweaking sail balance.

I guess since so few boats are now offered with a tiller, this is all stuff in the ‘ complete unknown’ for many new to sailing .

Otoh I now have a wheel on a boat( R36 ) which is essentially a tiller design . And I really like
A. The pedestal
B. The compass in front of the wheel
C. The below decks a/pilot
D. This is perhaps an odd one? : The ability ‘ to dial in’ an approach curve track when approaching a berth, particularly cross berths up ( or down!) those pesky marina alleys..
I sort of “set the boat up “ to do the perfect berth landing and then adjust the throttle or a touch of astern to kick the stem over, or dial in a bit more or a bit less helm if the crosswinds shift significantly ..
It certainly ain’t perfect though not foolproof haha..

One day I keep saying I will disconnect the wheel steering at the quadrant and shove the tiller in and Go Play... one day .. been saying that for 11years now!
When I used to use yard workboats a bit, waaaay back when, the whipstaff steering à la Haslar was brilliant when bringing in a customers boat strapped alongside.. again, hands free.. wouldn’t do it now though..

I was not aware Haslar had designed the cruising boat you show, thank you ! Food for thought based on lots and lots of time spent at sea !?

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Yes, it's good to brainstorm laterally as it provokes other ideas from them wot is wiser than oneself.

The tillerpilot is below decks and he uses a morse cable to work the Aries

Like setting up a 'pilot using a morse cable, which has certainly given me ideas.

I have an archaic Hasler SP. It's possible to Heath Robinson a tillerpilot onto it but it leaves it very exposed. Pictures would be good. Does it activate via a pivotted lever set up?

Some Fairey Atlantas have been, I think, redone with a whipstaff set up instead of a wheel. Funnily some modern designs are revisiting the idea. At present, I'm playing around with a rudder > tiller > lines > vertical 'staff in front of me like a simple joy stick. It's more of a duckpunt than a skiff really.

 

[dunedin]

That’s a different question and a different situation. To choose a windvane, autopilot or both as opposed to what type of steering to choose. I agree a windvane is a great device. Zero power.

Except for less cost these days you could buy a water generator which didn’t just power the autopilot, but also powers the fridge and all the other electric systems (except perhaps the water maker). And the degree of boat control of a modern AP is massively better than vane ..... or indeed human helm

 

[GHA]

Except for less cost these days you could buy a water generator which didn’t just power the autopilot, but also powers the fridge and all the other electric systems (except perhaps the water maker). And the degree of boat control of a modern AP is massively better than vane ..... or indeed human helm

Safer to assume everything will break offshore (not if, when) - with a bust windvane good chance you'll be able to get it working enough with some string. cable ties and epoxy.
Do you need such a high degree of control? WIndvane is fine for pointing the boat in roughly the right direction for weeks on end.

 

[geem]

Except for less cost these days you could buy a water generator which didn’t just power the autopilot, but also powers the fridge and all the other electric systems (except perhaps the water maker). And the degree of boat control of a modern AP is massively better than vane ..... or indeed human helm

I think it depends on the hull shape as to whether the wind self steering is as good as a modern AP. Friends with long keel boats report perfect steering under vane. In windy conditions with the wind forward of the beam I think the wind steering is extremely good on our boat and you wouldn’t know the difference. In bumpy downhill sailing the AP performs better in my opinion. In about 12kts of wind and flat seas the two perform as well as each other in my experience. I wouldnt be without either