pmyatt
Well-Known Member
No, I think that is just a different interpretation of the word.
Those Greek Port Police again!
- Thread starter Steve C Cronin
- Start date
No, I think that is just a different interpretation of the word.
John_Parkes
Active Member
We were one of the boats that the port police checked in Thasos harbour on Thursday evening. We are in date but the extinguishers bought in Greece are marked when purchased so it is easy for the police to spot when they need servicing and we were reminded by them they expire next month. The police checked all the boats that evening and at least three needed flairs and extinguishers (one of them well known to the forum!). We were not asked for a life raft certificate. Someone went up the office later to try to find out why this is happening and it seems there have been directives for them to tighten up on inspections.
Of course the local dive/fishing shop doesn't carry stock so more delays for those requiring flares. The turnaround to get the extinguishers serviced takes many days. We had them done on Aegina last year and it took 2 days and cost 8€ each. Not to grim.
Forever Freedom was told they have to return to Thasos to check out after they have finished cruising the island. Does that mean they will be charged for the whole time they are on the island even when not actually in the port?
Still a nice island though. Museum well worth a visit
John
Of course the local dive/fishing shop doesn't carry stock so more delays for those requiring flares. The turnaround to get the extinguishers serviced takes many days. We had them done on Aegina last year and it took 2 days and cost 8€ each. Not to grim.
Forever Freedom was told they have to return to Thasos to check out after they have finished cruising the island. Does that mean they will be charged for the whole time they are on the island even when not actually in the port?
Still a nice island though. Museum well worth a visit
John
John_Parkes
Active Member
oops I see our profile has not been updated.
J
J
Steve C Cronin
N/A
The point is do they actually have any right under law to make these demands? Another point is that since flares aren't obligatory under any european or UK regulations, plus being of dubious benefit, you are just better to get rid of them altogether.
It again comes down to the inconsistency of the behaviour of one Greek PP region or even station to the next and of course organisations like the CA and the RYA have the same usefulness as a chocolate toothbrush in aiding or informing their members on these matters but are all to willing to take the annual membership fees.
I have kept a boat in Greek waters since 2001 and have never been asked for any equipment related documentation by any official. "Thasos" is it called? That's one place to cross off the list then.
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pmyatt
Well-Known Member
Steve, it's a very pleasant island, so don't cross it off just for one incident which, although annoying, wasn't too unpleasant. Regarding your comment about the RYA, I am in total agreement; not sure I would include the CA - it has much less income and scope to conduct governmental enquiries.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Within the EU, "directives" take time to be implemented into an individual country's "law". Meanwhile, what is legal in an EU country may not be legal as far as the EU is concerned. So uncertainty rules.
Mistakes are made, as in Spain's "registration/matriculation tax" - which became a "pollution tax" when they realised they couldn't insist on re-registration, and then was converted into a payment only due if import of a boat wasn't reported on time. A sort of fine, in fact.
Then look at the differences of opinion as to what is legal or not concerning the carriage of red diesel.
These are differences between nations.
"Informing". I guess you haven't read the material on either web site. Both cover these regulatory uncertainties in detail. The peculiarities of different countries are particularly well described by the CA in their pilot book updates. CA seminars are run each year for the Mediterranean, Baltic, Blue water and Biscay waters, and cover this material, as well other topics.
Last London Boat Show the CA gave public sessions on rules and regulations titled "Going Foreign" through the Knowledge Box, and distributed handouts, free of charge. All this material (except CA pilot book updates) is available to non-members, as well as members. If that's not informing cruising folk, I don't know what does qualify.
When it comes to "aiding", both the CA and the RYA brief government departments on matters affecting cruising folk. Other governments don't listen to other nation's "Associations".
Where do you think all the info being traded on this thread comes from? Mainly, those two sources, updated from other poster's more recent experience. And without subscriptions . . . ?
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is an unreasonable stance to take. How do they know if members do not report incidents to them? The Greek authorities are not obliged to inform those organisations of any change in policy, nor ask permisssion. Neither do those organisations have any control on what other governments do. However, where government action breaks laws (particularly EU laws) they are effective in taking action. If not you would be required to have an annual cruising permit in the same way as a non EU boat, which is what the Greek Government wanted until action was taken by the UK government, prompted by the RYA to get them to comply with EU law.
You just have to accept that other countries can take many actions that have negative consequences for you, and equally accept that many local officials do not always act within their own laws. How you deal with that is up to you.
hartcjhart
Well-Known Member
pmyatt
Well-Known Member
Just found this on RYA site:
Law of the Sea and the Coastal State
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) provides a framework for the use of the oceans. It is this convention which specifies the territorial limits of a country and which defines whether a vessel is under the laws of its flag state or those of the state whose waters it is lying in.
Vessels are free to navigate the High Seas within the laws of their flag state and only a warship of their own nation has the right to intercept them (other than to confirm the nationality of the vessel) unless they are committing an international crime such as piracy.
Under UNCLOS vessels have a right of passage through the territorial waters of another country; all vessels exercising this right of passage must undertake a continuous and expeditious passage through territorial waters and may not engage in any activity which does not have direct bearing on the passage. They must also abide by international conventions - such as Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) - and the Coastal State has the jurisdiction to ensure that they do so.
The Coastal State may also have laws and regulations which such vessels must adhere to, to ensure safe navigation, regulation of maritime traffic, protection of navigational aids, facilities, pipelines, and cables, conservation and preservation of the environment and the living resources of the sea (including fisheries laws) and to prevent against infringement of customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal state.
The majority of cruising yachts will not however be regarded as being on a continuous and expeditious passage as they may be cruising along the coast, perhaps anchoring for lunch and they may also visit several ports within the Coastal State. These activities bring pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could then be required to adhere to all of their regulations.
UNCLOS also defines a country’s Internal Waters (waters which are landward of the Base Line) which includes many ports, harbours estuaries and bays and of course the inland waters such as rivers and canals.
If a vessel makes a continuous and expeditious passage through territorial waters to a destination within Internal Waters such as a port, the right of passage ends on entering Internal Waters. By voluntarily entering a port or the internal waters of another country a vessel submits to the jurisdiction of that country i.e. the Coastal or Port State, as Internal Waters are considered to be an integral part of a country. The authority of a state over foreign vessels in its internal waters is the same as those for a foreigner on its soil, which of course includes boat crews going out for dinner, sight seeing, shopping and generally making use of facilities ashore in their destination port.
The Coastal State however will generally refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of foreign flagged vessels as a matter of “comity” – courteous recognition accorded by one nation to the laws and institutions of another. So unless you attract the attention of the authorities for example because your boat is deemed not to be seaworthy, you will generally be allowed to go about your business as a visitor without hindrance.
There are some elements of Coastal State Law that a visiting boat may be asked to comply with and it is these regulations that the RYA does its best to keep abreast of. The most common is for the skipper of the vessel to be required to prove that he or she is competent to be in command of the vessel.
A country may specify requirements such as a crew list or specific publications that must be carried (e.g. a local almanac / International regulations for preventing collisions at sea). Vessels navigating the European inland waters are generally required to carry a copy of the local rules (which may be written in the native language of the country concerned). It is important to ensure you are aware of all such requirements.
RYA Members will find country by country information for some of the more commonly visited countries under Boating Abroad for Members.
It is not in the RYA’s normal scope of work to advise on matters relating to boats that are kept abroad, residency in foreign countries or trading matters abroad. If you choose to base your boat abroad, have both property and your boat in a country, become resident abroad, cruise a company owned yacht or use your vessel for commercial gain (including offering it for charter), the rules may differ considerably from those for vessels on short visits.
Different countries and even local areas within countries will have their own regulations. It is essential that you find out what these are, as failure to pay taxes for example can result in significant fines when the authorities become aware of your non-payment. Not knowing the regulations is no defence for non-compliance and you may find that in addition to the national regulations there are local variations or applications you need to be aware of. To do this you will need to contact the relevant national and local authorities.
Law of the Sea and the Coastal State
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) provides a framework for the use of the oceans. It is this convention which specifies the territorial limits of a country and which defines whether a vessel is under the laws of its flag state or those of the state whose waters it is lying in.
Vessels are free to navigate the High Seas within the laws of their flag state and only a warship of their own nation has the right to intercept them (other than to confirm the nationality of the vessel) unless they are committing an international crime such as piracy.
Under UNCLOS vessels have a right of passage through the territorial waters of another country; all vessels exercising this right of passage must undertake a continuous and expeditious passage through territorial waters and may not engage in any activity which does not have direct bearing on the passage. They must also abide by international conventions - such as Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) - and the Coastal State has the jurisdiction to ensure that they do so.
The Coastal State may also have laws and regulations which such vessels must adhere to, to ensure safe navigation, regulation of maritime traffic, protection of navigational aids, facilities, pipelines, and cables, conservation and preservation of the environment and the living resources of the sea (including fisheries laws) and to prevent against infringement of customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal state.
The majority of cruising yachts will not however be regarded as being on a continuous and expeditious passage as they may be cruising along the coast, perhaps anchoring for lunch and they may also visit several ports within the Coastal State. These activities bring pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and they could then be required to adhere to all of their regulations.
UNCLOS also defines a country’s Internal Waters (waters which are landward of the Base Line) which includes many ports, harbours estuaries and bays and of course the inland waters such as rivers and canals.
If a vessel makes a continuous and expeditious passage through territorial waters to a destination within Internal Waters such as a port, the right of passage ends on entering Internal Waters. By voluntarily entering a port or the internal waters of another country a vessel submits to the jurisdiction of that country i.e. the Coastal or Port State, as Internal Waters are considered to be an integral part of a country. The authority of a state over foreign vessels in its internal waters is the same as those for a foreigner on its soil, which of course includes boat crews going out for dinner, sight seeing, shopping and generally making use of facilities ashore in their destination port.
The Coastal State however will generally refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of foreign flagged vessels as a matter of “comity” – courteous recognition accorded by one nation to the laws and institutions of another. So unless you attract the attention of the authorities for example because your boat is deemed not to be seaworthy, you will generally be allowed to go about your business as a visitor without hindrance.
There are some elements of Coastal State Law that a visiting boat may be asked to comply with and it is these regulations that the RYA does its best to keep abreast of. The most common is for the skipper of the vessel to be required to prove that he or she is competent to be in command of the vessel.
A country may specify requirements such as a crew list or specific publications that must be carried (e.g. a local almanac / International regulations for preventing collisions at sea). Vessels navigating the European inland waters are generally required to carry a copy of the local rules (which may be written in the native language of the country concerned). It is important to ensure you are aware of all such requirements.
RYA Members will find country by country information for some of the more commonly visited countries under Boating Abroad for Members.
It is not in the RYA’s normal scope of work to advise on matters relating to boats that are kept abroad, residency in foreign countries or trading matters abroad. If you choose to base your boat abroad, have both property and your boat in a country, become resident abroad, cruise a company owned yacht or use your vessel for commercial gain (including offering it for charter), the rules may differ considerably from those for vessels on short visits.
Different countries and even local areas within countries will have their own regulations. It is essential that you find out what these are, as failure to pay taxes for example can result in significant fines when the authorities become aware of your non-payment. Not knowing the regulations is no defence for non-compliance and you may find that in addition to the national regulations there are local variations or applications you need to be aware of. To do this you will need to contact the relevant national and local authorities.
1bobt
N/A
Because of port police incompertance a yacht was lost in Monomvasia this Monday.
macd
Well-Known Member
Come on, then, tell us more.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That has been there for a very long time and adequately summarises the situation. In reality it is the last bit that is most relevant, otherwise the thousands of UK boats that freely cruise around (mainly) European waters would not be able to do so with so little hassle. However the unclear nature of legislation means that it is inevitable that from time to time there are disputes or potential disputes. The basic problem is that most of the law covering yachts in international settings is derived from law related to commercial shipping which has at its centre the concept of Flag State and Coastal State. This is fundamentally at odds with most civil law and EU law which has at its centre the concept of national states and individual citizenship. Much of the freedom to roam European waters freely derives from EU law, particularly freedom of movement, but EU law says little about the boats we use other than how they should be built and VAT. So the crucial bits in between such as safety equipment and rules covering whether boats can move freely from one state to another, or be based in a state different from their "home" state (however defined) are simply not covered by any form of consistent law.
There have been attempts to rationalise this - at least in the EU, the latest just last year, but there is neither the rationale or political will to pursue it, so it will remain a "might happen one day". It is worth noting that the main objection to such proposals are that they are not needed and there is no justification for the cost involved. Just this week there have been proposal to introduce an EU wide testing regime for caravans, somewhat similar to proposals for an inspection regime and licencing for boats. Roundly rejected by a number of states (not just the UK) for the same reasons - no evidence that there is a problem and no justification for the expense.
So we are left with the current situation. Organisations such as the RYA and CA attempt to represent their constituency interests in an unclear legal environment. They cannot act directly - only through governments and are reliant on members to report issues that may affect members. They can inform and if necessary lobby governments or other organisations to take action. Expecting them to solve individual disputes is unrealistic although there will inevitably be cases where there is a clear injustice or illegal act where their legal advice may be useful.
Steve C Cronin
N/A
"Illegal acts"?
Oh if I had the time I could tell you a fascinating tale of Katakolon, dodgy "UK (Jersey) Registered" Russian motor yachts with illegals on board, frog marching of UK citizens in handcuffs to PP stations, intervention by British Embassy in Athens, profound apologies by PP regional commander, disappearance of Russian vessel overnight and "Royal Treatment" of offended UK citizens in subsequent visits ever since. Oh yes! I COULD tell you!
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Tranona has the matter in perspective. Before indulging in "Daily Mail" indignation it would be as well to take objective stock of the true situation in Greece.
1. There is unrelenting IMF/ECC pressure on the Greek Government to reduce its bloated public payroll. The Limenkos Soma is no different to any other government dept in being required to justify its numbers. Hence the increasing activities of Port Police.
2. Virtually all the cruisers in Greek waters are outside the "innocent passage" category.
3. The levels of seamanship in the units is almost non-existent - I know of one office in Kephalonia who regularly uses an expat commercially-endorsed Yachtmaster to drive their RIB when operating against smugglers.
Even Steve may have noticed that there is additional charge, since October 2012, being made in Messolonghi for launch/recovery port fees.
In 1975 a friend (a JP) spent a night in the cells @ Lesvos, after spilling some diesel when re-filling a charter yacht - one of the other skippers was a CC judge, and great embarrassment was experienced until the local commander offered his apologies and JA's release.
The fact that Delaware and Channel Island registration offer flags of convenience for all sorts of tax-evaders is nothing new, it has been commonplace in Mediterranean France since the early 80's. The concentration of UK registered, non-english speaking boats is high in the N Aegean and Croatian waters - almost unknown in the Ionian.
The right of arrest is inherent to all police forces in all nation-states - most of those frog-marched off to the cells probably deserved their fate by their immediate use of their big tongue.
tudorsailor
Well-Known Member
I will be going to Corfu in September, arriving from Montenegro. My yacht is British flagged and privately owned. I assume that I have to check in with Customs or is this not necessary as we are an EU yacht arriving in an EU country. (When we arrived in Italy recently from outside the EU the marina said not to bother with customs as we were an EU boat within the EU)
Do we have to report to the Port Police or do we wait for them to find us.
Our fire extinguishers were last serviced a couple of years ago. They have the date of last service but no date for next service. Should we get them "serviced" before arriving in Greece?
Any other tips???
TudorSalior
Do we have to report to the Port Police or do we wait for them to find us.
Our fire extinguishers were last serviced a couple of years ago. They have the date of last service but no date for next service. Should we get them "serviced" before arriving in Greece?
Any other tips???
TudorSalior
Mad Pad
Well-Known Member
You will have to check in as you will be arriving from outside the EEC.Are you in Montenegro now?
tudorsailor
Well-Known Member
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Under current legislation, all leisure boats over 10m LOA (if that applies to you) need to obtain a cruising log document - "DEKPA".
For a pretty full definition as to what to expect when cruising in Greece see [url]http://jimbsail.info/greece[/URL]
For a pretty full definition as to what to expect when cruising in Greece see [url]http://jimbsail.info/greece[/URL]
Mad Pad
Well-Known Member
Tudor Sailor are you there?Never met another forumite!I'm down on Tuesday till Sunday,also in Porto on D pontoon.
John_Parkes
Active Member
Our guess was right! F F returned on Wednesday after 4 days at anchor and when they went to check out yesterday they were charged for the whole time on the island. Sneaky!
I should add when the police came to check on the flares and extinguishers they were most polite, refused to come aboard and only wanted to see one sample of each.
For those thinking to give Thasos a miss - don't. It's a great place, prices are reasonable, there's no loud discos and lets face it your flares etc should be in date.
John
I should add when the police came to check on the flares and extinguishers they were most polite, refused to come aboard and only wanted to see one sample of each.
For those thinking to give Thasos a miss - don't. It's a great place, prices are reasonable, there's no loud discos and lets face it your flares etc should be in date.
John