Those Greek Port Police again!

[Steve C Cronin]

This just received from a fellow CA member

"Inspected by Port Police in Thasso Harbour this evening. Told we must purchase a set of flares before we can leave - but, as our fire extinguishers do not have a "Certificate" showing they are in date we can't stay in the harbour . . . . . . Greek Logic?"

Couldn't run a p i s s - up in an ousiary!

Jim: don't even TRY to defend this attitude!

 

[Tony Cross]

As you'll know Steve, there was a similar thread on the CA forum recently concerning a member who had been warned that single-handing in Greece may well be illegal. At the time I pointed out that there are probably a great many laws that the port police could use to make our lives difficult should we annoy them. I have no idea whether the member concerned here annoyed them but I know from experience that arguing with them is pointless and if you really make them angry these are the types of "laws" they will throw at you. The moral of the story is I think to smile and never argue, even when you know they are wrong.

 

[Bertramdriver]

As you'll know Steve, there was a similar thread on the CA forum recently concerning a member who had been warned that single-handing in Greece may well be illegal. At the time I pointed out that there are probably a great many laws that the port police could use to make our lives difficult should we annoy them. I have no idea whether the member concerned here annoyed them but I know from experience that arguing with them is pointless and if you really make them angry these are the types of "laws" they will throw at you. The moral of the story is I think to smile and never argue, even when you know they are wrong.

Absolutely right. The PP are full of their own importance and DEMAND respect and obedience. Any challenge invokes wrath.

 

[Carmel2]

We have a game we play, the more miserable they look the happier we get, and extra points are scored for a hand shake at the end of the proceedings, but you have to keep going until it get just slightly uncomfortable

 

[jordanbasset]

The female Port police officer at Kalamata, as wonderful. I avoided seeing her for some time as we were in a marina and did not think it necessary, also make a point of never volunteering to the Port Police. But after much cajoling and persuasion she got me in her office, preparing for the worst she could say to me I was a little surprised when she offered me biscuits and a fruit juice.We then had a conversation about things to do in the area before stamping my DEKPA, no charge. She was also gorgeous looking, or atleast that was what I was told, I never notice these sort of things.

 

[Palarran]

The logic isn't good but neither is having out of date flares and fire extinguishers.

I need to use a transit log. Because of this, we visited a lot of Port Authority's this summer. Frankly I found them to be courteous on each visit. I have read a lot about the problems posters encounter with officials in the Med and guess I'm just lucky. If you all are ever thinking of leaving here and heading to the Caribbean, be prepared to complain much, much more. There the officials will sit at a desk behind a window and talk to each other for 1/2 hour before acknowledging you are even there. You will fill out paperwork by hand, in triplicate, then march across the harbor to another official to get a stamp, etc. What a PITA. I'd take Greek officials any day over Caribbean ones (except St. Barts)

Carmel2, love the handshake game.

 

[pmyatt]

Thasos Port Police

This just received from a fellow CA member

"Inspected by Port Police in Thasso Harbour this evening. Told we must purchase a set of flares before we can leave - but, as our fire extinguishers do not have a "Certificate" showing they are in date we can't stay in the harbour . . . . . . Greek Logic?"

Couldn't run a p i s s - up in an ousiary!

Jim: don't even TRY to defend this attitude!

As the original poster on the CA Mednet Forum, perhaps I should add an addendum. We have cruised the Eastern Med for 13 years and never, before, have been asked for flares, fire extinguishers or life raft certificates. Additionally, we spent 6 weeks in Thasos Harbour last summer, had a very good relationship with the Port Police, and having paid our Port Dues in advance on arrival, were troubled no further. With regard to the matter of flares, perhaps the length of time away from the UK RYA/H&S environment has clouded my judgement(?), as I no longer regard them as a reliable or necessary source of seeking assistance, an attitude supported by the RYA in one of it's advisory information publications for vessels under 13.7 meters. Forever Freedom has 2 independent DSC radios, 1 AIS system which can also transmit a distress signal, an EPIRB and a separate satellite transmitter; each has it's own antenna and 3 have their own power supplies. Concerning the fire extinguishers, each has a pressure gauge and is inspected regularly by myself - there being no means of "servicing" apart from discharging them, which rather defeats the object. The life raft is serviced in accordance with it's recommendations, but the sticker was not UV resistant and disintegrated last year. It is interesting that, only 2 days before, when visiting the Port Police in Porto Lagos, we were asked for our annual Seaworthiness Certificate; perhaps there has been a "gingering-up" of Port Police in the Northern Aegean.

 

[nortada]

Annual Seaworthiness Certificate?

When visiting the Port Police in Porto Lagos, we were asked for our annual Seaworthiness Certificate; perhaps there has been a "gingering-up" of Port Police in the Northern Aegean.

What is an Annual Seaworthiness Certificate?

New one on me - is this peculiar to Greece & how do you get one?

 

[Bertramdriver]

More to the point what flag are you sailing under? If British then PP do not have jurisdiction. If Greek, tough.

 

[jimbaerselman]

What is an Annual Seaworthiness Certificate?

Quite a few countries require these certificates for craft on their own registry. And the certificates require lists of kit on board.

Some maritime officials assume that their own country's regulations apply to all vessels cruising from port to port in their territory. This is a reasonable interpretation - but impractical - since it implies that all leisure vessels aiming to cruise abroad would then have to meet each individual country's regulations. Including being inspected for an annual seaworthiness certificate.

So a useful convention is to extend the "right of innocent passage" to include cruising folk who are coast hopping. That implies that only their own flag country's regulations apply to that yacht. However, this isn't necessarily a "right". It's a concession, useful for tourism. And sometimes officials will remind you of that.

As Pmyatt pointed out, one difficulty of regulating what kit should be carried is to arrange that such kit is realistic, and takes account of changing technology.

Not easy when these things are defined by government regulations. Lobbying by those who produce flares and lifejackets defined by law 30 years ago don't want their outdated monopolies and profits being challenged by new ideas . . .

Have you seen the old regulation Greek life jackets? Defined in 1976 I think . . . when polystyrene lumps replaced Kapok.

 

[pmyatt]

What is an Annual Seaworthiness Certificate?

New one on me - is this peculiar to Greece & how do you get one?

Don't know the answer to that one although, it is a commercial requirement. Am visiting Port Police in Porto Lagos on Monday (again where we are well known Forever freedom having spent the winter here) where I hope to get a copy of any official document relating to these matters . . . Forlorn hope perhaps!

 

[rivonia]

More to the point what flag are you sailing under? If British then PP do not have jurisdiction. If Greek, tough.

I think you will find the Port Police have all the jurisdiction that they want. Just try to tell them "I am under a British Flag you cannot touch me" and see what happens. If you are in Greek waters then they have full control. At least that has always been my understanding.

Peter

 

[NornaBiron]

perhaps there has been a "gingering-up" of Port Police in the Northern Aegean.[/QUOTE]

Don't go to Alexandropoulis, they were bad enough before!

 

[pmyatt]

More to the point what flag are you sailing under? If British then PP do not have jurisdiction. If Greek, tough.

Red Ensign and Part 1 Registration. I wouldn't really want to "argue" jurisdiction with the Greek Port Police; additionally, I think the Portuguese have flattened the argument of no jurisdiction on foreign flagged vessels quite successfully and, I disagree with JimB (reluctantly) in that I think the convention of "innocent passage" ceases to apply once you have stepped ashore.

 

[pmyatt]

More to the point what flag are you sailing under? If British then PP do not have jurisdiction. If Greek, tough.

Red Ensign and Part 1 Registration. I wouldn't really want to "argue" jurisdiction with the Greek Port Police; additionally, I think the Portuguese have flattened the argument of no jurisdiction on foreign flagged vessels quite successfully and, I disagree with JimB (reluctantly) in that I think the convention of "innocent passage" ceases to apply once you have stepped ashore.

 

[jimbaerselman]

New Zealand applied their regulations to visiting yachts for a period. After a lot of international fuss, they withdrew the requirements.

pmyatt, no need to be reluctant! You've made me trawl old memories, which is useful, if not necessarily fully up to date!

"innocent passage" usually stood as long as you visited a port or anchorage and then moved on. This convention allowed bunkering, ferry operations and delivery and collection of cargo by foreign flag vessels (except for a range of cargos to and from USA, which can only be shipped by USA flagged vessels!). Stepping ashore didn't happen - the boat stayed in a customs controlled area. Individual crew members could, of course, go through passport controls without jeopardising this concept

If you hop from port to port, or base your boat in another country, innocent passage can be challenged. I'm not sure that stepping ashore is necessarily a criterion - but I don't think that concept has been tested.

 

[Tranona]

If they were going to apply local requirements rather than exercise comity (recognition of other states' laws) then they would have to do it as a specific policy, probably supported by law. At the moment Greek laws only apply to Greek registered craft and it suits them because they have a very large commercial fleet and some of their requirements as Jim pointed out are not the same as other countries. It would be a massive job to impose such requirements on foreign registered boats in Greek waters.

What seems to be happening here is the same as the Portuguese situation where local officials are making up their own version of the rules. The big difference in Portugal is that the government then decided (presumably as a result of pressure from local officials) to adopt an official policy of applying local rules to foreign boats that are obviously permanently based in Portugal. This at least has some logic in creating a clear category of genuine visitors. Not seen any feedback as to how rigorously the new policy has been implemented.

The New Zealand case was a bit different. AFAIK if you keep your boat in NZ you have to comply with local rules. The court case concerned a policy of refusing exit clearance for foreign boats that did not comply with NZ rules. So, similar situation arises where visiting yachts are not required to meet requirements, but resident boats are - not sure how resident is determined. In practice it is not difficult for a well found yacht to meet the requirements anyway.

Like Jim, my objection to local requirements is in areas where there is choice and the prescription of local requirements results in poor choice of equipment as the rules are often determined by special interest groups rather than reflecting latest practice - flares and lifejackets are good examples. Another good example is the requirement to fit EPIRBs on Greek charter boats when most sail in coastal waters in VHF range and have DSC radios fitted. Last time I looked there had been no reports of EPIRB activations in Greek coastal waters from a yacht.

 

[jimbaerselman]

The big difference in Portugal is that the government then decided (presumably as a result of pressure from local officials) to adopt an official policy of applying local rules to foreign boats that are obviously permanently based in Portugal.

The relevant EU directive concerns "Means of Transport" (boats come in this category, as do cars and airplanes). My take on this and the way it is applied is at http://jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad - here's the quote, and don't dare hold me liable if it's in error!

Your Boat's Residency (or car). EU regulations allow that EU means of transport spending more than 180 days continuously in another EU country should be "imported"; ie, the local authorities should be notified. The purpose is to arrange that they pay the same taxes and dues that locals pay. Import may be temporary, keeping the same country of registration, or permanent, changing registration to the new country. Changing registration implies that equipment fitted must meet local standards, and this may include obtaining local certificates of competence/licences. Most EU countries require cars to be imported, but not boats - unless you become tax resident (see above).

It's interesting to note the high margin business operating at ferry terminals leaving UK selling all sorts of junk to "meet foreign regs", like headlamp stickers, spare bulb sets - which (a) didn't do the advertised job or (b) were rendered un-necessary by new generations of car headlights and controls. A good parallel with flares and lifejackets are triangles and high visibility vests . . . common sense stuff . . . but "approved"? Inspected?

 

[pmyatt]

As with many YBW posts, this one seems to be becoming long on possibilities, but short on definitive evidence. If, when in Greek waters, I have to have a minimum number of flares for a given size boat, then sobeit. I'd really just like to know where to get definitive information; hence my intended visit to Porto Lagos Port Police on Monday. This morning we went to the local experts, Tsoukas Marine, who showed us the raft of documentation and annual certificates for fire extinguishers that they are required to maintain for the private X-Boat 115 owned by the boss; unfortunately there is no standard reference to which they can direct us, hence the forthcoming visit to the Port Police. Wish me luck . . . .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

What is an Annual Seaworthiness Certificate?

New one on me - is this peculiar to Greece & how do you get one?

Well, nobody has answered your question therefore I will.

In truth there is no such thing in Greece for private craft. A brief view of any number of local boats in any port makes that obvious.