They are NOT Volvo Pentas, not IPS

[superheat6k]

Thank goodness my new intended purchase has conventional Ford Sabre engines with minimal electronics, no "safe" 'get you home' mode, no ECUs, and no IPS drives.

It does have both Bow & Stern thrusters, OK I guess these will have at least some electronics, but not for the main shafts that do the real work (and with which most on here could berth without the extra ease these toys provide !).

It seems to me, as evidenced by numerous threads on here, that anyone buying a boat made, say, after ~ 2000 - 2015 is taking an increasingly foul bet that the electronics and associated tomfoolery that is computer programming, is taking on a far higher risk liability after say ~15 years of boat service than I am after some 30 years.

So I wonder in another 15 years whether my by then 45 year old boat will be seen as a far safer purchase than a by then 25 - 30 year old boat with these 'modern' devices, e.g. IPS, Common rail, ECUs, and restrictive service provisions, et al.

Just a thought of course.

 

[Portofino]

It will .

 

[Greg2]

I have to say that I much prefer our fairly basic Perkins and the absence of electronics has to be a plus point in terms of longevity but as for the long term I think the issue will be the continuation of fossil fuel propulsion but I hope that the likes of HVO will have taken over.

 

[volvopaul]

Thank goodness my new intended purchase has conventional Ford Sabre engines with minimal electronics, no "safe" 'get you home' mode, no ECUs, and no IPS drives.

It does have both Bow & Stern thrusters, OK I guess these will have at least some electronics, but not for the main shafts that do the real work (and with which most on here could berth without the extra ease these toys provide !).

It seems to me, as evidenced by numerous threads on here, that anyone buying a boat made, say, after ~ 2000 - 2015 is taking an increasingly foul bet that the electronics and associated tomfoolery that is computer programming, is taking on a far higher risk liability after say ~15 years of boat service than I am after some 30 years.

So I wonder in another 15 years whether my by then 45 year old boat will be seen as a far safer purchase than a by then 25 - 30 year old boat with these 'modern' devices, e.g. IPS, Common rail, ECUs, and restrictive service provisions, et al.

Just a thought of course.

There’s always a BUT with anything Trevor , I hate to say but Pistons are scarce for the old Fords so treat them gently .

 

[burgundyben]

There’s always a BUT with anything Trevor , I hate to say but Pistons are scarce for the old Fords so treat them gently .

Only the 6.7ltr big bore 370hp engines.

No parts availability issues for the 5.9 and 6.3ltr up to 300hp.

 

[harvey38]

Only the 6.7ltr big bore 370hp engines.

No parts availability issues for the 5.9 and 6.3ltr up to 300hp.

Drop in new liners and pistons, job done ?

 

[KevinV]

Thank goodness my new intended purchase has conventional Ford Sabre engines with minimal electronics, no "safe" 'get you home' mode, no ECUs, and no IPS drives.

It does have both Bow & Stern thrusters, OK I guess these will have at least some electronics, but not for the main shafts that do the real work (and with which most on here could berth without the extra ease these toys provide !).

It seems to me, as evidenced by numerous threads on here, that anyone buying a boat made, say, after ~ 2000 - 2015 is taking an increasingly foul bet that the electronics and associated tomfoolery that is computer programming, is taking on a far higher risk liability after say ~15 years of boat service than I am after some 30 years.

So I wonder in another 15 years whether my by then 45 year old boat will be seen as a far safer purchase than a by then 25 - 30 year old boat with these 'modern' devices, e.g. IPS, Common rail, ECUs, and restrictive service provisions, et al.

Just a thought of course.

I know sod all about motorboats, but I wonder if they are analoguos with cars - cars hit (as far as I'm concerned) a sweet spot at the end of the nineties/ early 2k's. Nearly all engine development till that point had been on improving reliabilty and efficiency, to great effect - the manufacture of the metal bits was highly precise, the materials consistent, the use of plastics in engines limited, the electronics were single purpose and reliable.
After that time other things started to be more important - eco became the watchword - so diesels got ruined with ERG valves, DPF filters and AdBlue - petrols got ruined with high revs and turbos on tiny, cheap engines. To make all this work requires a multitude of sensors and widgets to process those inputs and now we are in a situation where fixing a fault is the easy part but chaos theory makes FINDING the fault increasingly difficult. As there is no standardisation (especially not in boats!) availabilty of the widgets long-term becomes a real issue, with many perfectly good cars already being scrapped because an (economically) irreplaceable widget has failed, or at least the best diagnostician they could find thinks that widget failed. Not such a disaster on a car with a 10-15 year lifespan, but on a boat that would be an expensive place to find yourself.

Like I say, I know sod all about mobo's, but I enjoy reading along with you stinkies.

 

[benjenbav]

Thank goodness my new intended purchase has conventional Ford Sabre engines with minimal electronics, no "safe" 'get you home' mode, no ECUs, and no IPS drives.

It does have both Bow & Stern thrusters, OK I guess these will have at least some electronics, but not for the main shafts that do the real work (and with which most on here could berth without the extra ease these toys provide !).

It seems to me, as evidenced by numerous threads on here, that anyone buying a boat made, say, after ~ 2000 - 2015 is taking an increasingly foul bet that the electronics and associated tomfoolery that is computer programming, is taking on a far higher risk liability after say ~15 years of boat service than I am after some 30 years.

So I wonder in another 15 years whether my by then 45 year old boat will be seen as a far safer purchase than a by then 25 - 30 year old boat with these 'modern' devices, e.g. IPS, Common rail, ECUs, and restrictive service provisions, et al.

Just a thought of course.

Whilst I’d be inclined to agree, I have to say that my last experience of selling a boat with old mechanical engines (which, incidentally, were immaculate) was not enjoyable. But that was a few years ago when the market was on its knees.

 

[julians]

I dont think there's anything wrong with electronically/computer controlled engines, they've been around since the 80's, I think where things start to get to the point of being too complex is when you have 'actuated' components, ie things that are moved by motors, solonoids and the like (IPS drives being a good example), when they could be moved by a more reliable mechanical mechanism. I guess we will get to the point where 'acuators' in the consumer space are reliable/robust etc, but I dont think we're there yet.

 

[ari]

My concern about buying a boat with 45 year old engines would be the lifespan of those actual engines (am I going to be faced with one going pop?) and getting parts for a long obsolete engine, and indeed sourcing an engine if one did go pop (will I end up having to replace both because I can't? Will that end up costing more than that 45 year old boat is worth if I do, effectively writing the boat off?).

Ultimately, boats are all about risk. Buy a new one and you risk snagging (albeit with a warranty) and, of course, you take on the worst of the depreciation. Buy a nearly new one and, as mentioned, complexity is a concern. Buy an old one and fundamental failures become ever more likely.

You pays your money... as the saying has it.

 

[oldgit]

..........................................at some point somebody will provide an independant after market service for IPS and similar technologies at a cost that actually reflects the age and value of the gear concerned.
It happened with outdrives and eventually will happen with IPS and associated marine electronics.
Just needs a critical mass to make it worth while.
There is always somebody out there with an eye for a market opportunity.
Not that long ago the auto gearbox workshop next to me could repair a fancy gearbox full of electronics in a Merc/BMW/Audi but it had to then go to a authorised main dealer to get it programmed .
Suspect all it took was one disgruntled employee, then a phone call would result in man popping round to your premises. Now the software and equipment is out there for anybody who needs it.
Firm now advertising a service to replace the battery cells in early EVs.
Would be nice if somebody could offer a refurbished IPS leg off the shelf, it would certainly help give a lower cost alternative to the hourly labour costs of genuine VP dealer and the annoying wait while something is being repaired.
Not sure if you need some electronic wizardry to make the leg talk to the boat ?

 

[Portofino]

My concern about buying a boat with 45 year old engines would be the lifespan of those actual engines (am I going to be faced with one going pop?) and getting parts for a long obsolete engine, and indeed sourcing an engine if one did go pop (will I end up having to replace both because I can't? Will that end up costing more than that 45 year old boat is worth if I do, effectively writing the boat off?).

Ultimately, boats are all about risk. Buy a new one and you risk snagging (albeit with a warranty) and, of course, you take on the worst of the depreciation. Buy a nearly new one and, as mentioned, complexity is a concern. Buy an old one and fundamental failures become ever more likely.

You pays your money... as the saying has it.

But age does not necessarily mean wear in terms of hr s run , or with cars miles .

Most basic mechanical components can be custom built .eg cam shafts etc .
Certainly piston / liner sets .
Plenty of guys in sheds (actually units ) with CNC machines and lathes .Eg there’s a shop in California that casts early Lamborghini pistons for the Countach V 12 , very reasonable too .Improved rings and skirts as well .

I run a classic Ferrari with a 45y old engine . All about the history .As simple as your garden strimmer .
I had had modern ( read new + low miles ) electrotwackery ones and been in /out the dealer with various dash lights , actuator issues , soft where re flashes , ECU module swaps .

One was sold.No prizes for guessing which .

If the marine diesel base block is from ( usually are ) a land based motor then the meaty parts are available for decades .
Better still modular designed ( larger displacement) as you can buy just that module .

 

[Scarron]

Those Sabres will be fine, the most important thing to address with them is the intercoolers.

They are a cupronickel tubestack in a a cast aluminium casing with bronze end caps, all straightforward and easily serviced. Abbey heat in Eastleigh will clean and re-solder the tubestacks and if there is any doubts then new ones are about £600+ from Seahorse Power, probably a good investment - I did.

The main problem is that the bronze end caps seal the whole assembly using standard O rings, unfortunately the designer chose much too small a cross section for the O rings and any mismatch or damage on the sealing faces [the aluminium faces are prone to corrosion] will lead to early failure and potentially seawater ingestion followed by hydraulic lock!

I have developed a larger cross section wedge shaped seal to replace the O rings which I am currently testing. I'd say that because of the potential fatal [for the engine] consequences of a leaking intercooler it should be a bi-annual winter job to service them, not difficult and if you don't know when they were last done do them soon.

 

[stelican]

In reply to Old Git post 11
Re conditioned IPS drives and sections of are available off the shelf in USA.
Recent price for IPS 900 lower unit $26.000 plus tax and fitting cost also to consider!
And as the prop shaft seals were damaged causing water ingress Volvo recommended changing the clutch pack in upper unit.

 

[Fire99]

I think on a basic level technological development is multi-faceted. There is nothing wrong with the technology as such. After all, going back to the 80's, Casio digital watches would have been a marked step forward in reliability compared to their predecessors.

The problem with 'modern times' is that features and meeting tightening emission regs etc are high on the priority list. A long lifespan and ease of maintenance aren't. Profit models work to a much shorter ultimate lifespan these days, or at least can be calculated more accurately. I'm not sure if a 30 year old Sabre engine was intentionally designed to last decades and decades but the computer tech probably wasn't available to either calculate lifespan or bring cost of production down.

As I heard regarding a premium car manufacturer, they said that the additional tech didn't necessarily make the car any better but people want the tech and constant (a bit more) so it's what sells units. Clever IPS and functions to computer control holding the boat in its berth etc sell boats. Saying the engines will easily last 40 years with low level of maintenance is a harder angle to sell on.


My old 80's BMW engine would be the ideal model example for a boat engine. Fuel injection so it started easily but a well proven, mechanically 'bomb proof' engine that I could service myself and put lots of miles on. (And service parts were available from lots of sources).

 

[superheat6k]

There’s always a BUT with anything Trevor , I hate to say but Pistons are scarce for the old Fords so treat them gently .

Following the debacle with my Corvette and two seized pistons due to a fouled water inlet, I have already ordered two Aqualarm sea water flow switches plus an 2+2 alarm panel that combines these with exhaust overheat alarms for each side.

Installing these will be high on my task list.

I have also taken onboard the advice to service the heat exchangers, which for me will be an annual task, with new pencil anodes every 6 months.

 

[harvey38]

Following the debacle with my Corvette and two seized pistons due to a fouled water inlet, I have already ordered two Aqualarm sea water flow switches plus an 2+2 alarm panel that combines these with exhaust overheat alarms for each side.

Installing these will be high on my task list.

I have also taken onboard the advice to service the heat exchangers, which for me will be an annual task, with new pencil anodes every 6 months.

We're you able to source the Aqualarm from the UK or US?

 

[SC35]

I'm not a fan of over-complexity either, but I love the "fly by wire" throttles on the VP D4-260, compared to the heavy mechanical controls on the previous boat.
Everyone has their own limits as to what they are prepared to accept.

For me, I am avoiding the outdrives that steer themselves with the hydraulic tie bar and the joystick.
IPS seems like a good idea to me, at least for the first few years.
After that you hear some wallet shrinking stories, but that also applies to many older boats.

 

[ChromeDome]

Back in the day engines (trucks, tractors and more) were marinized after proving their reliability for many years. Hence a very strong starting point.

Recent years have seen engines marinized shortly after being marketed, with surprises lurking in the future.

It is interesting, that Yanmar still offer both electronic and manual:

 

[oldgit]

In reply to Old Git post 11
Re conditioned IPS drives and sections of are available off the shelf in USA.
Recent price for IPS 900 lower unit $26.000 plus tax and fitting cost also to consider!
And as the prop shaft seals were damaged causing water ingress Volvo recommended changing the clutch pack in upper unit.

Ouch....... around £21K plus shipping from the colonies and about 25% in taxes.
Available below, this side of the pond but no prices and of course and now got to add the "taking back control" 20% Brexit penalty tax.
2x Volvo Penta IPS drive (IPS900) Used drives - AB Marine service