The sublime and the ridiculous - boatshow

[Lightwave395]

That is a grand statement. Can you enlarge on it please, Like what bits & how many?
( ignore the glass of scotch, although of major importance, not what i am looking for )

Certainly ! The worst culprit was the huge 2 drawer fridge / freezer. The 2 drawers were held shut by two small pieces of stainless steel which you turned 90 deg to cover the upper and lower corners of each drawer. The first wave we hit coming out into a 20 knot Baltic proper chop bent both the catches as the drawers flew open and deposited their contents all over the cabin floor, eggs and all.

The boat had a self tacking jib and on our 3rd or 4th gybe the jib (around 20+ knots true) car flew across completely off the track taking the end stop with it, the doors to the stern cabins and heads wouldn't shut properly and a couple of trim bits around the galley detached themselves. The electrics were a bit suspect, the AIS wouldn't talk to the plotters but thankfully the pilot worked.

The owner was, shall we say, somewhat parsimonious and the delivery was in late March despite which he'd decided he could get heating installed back in UK cheaper than the factory so it was somewhat chilly, we had no ensign as he thought it should have come with one for that money and as a result (they said) we were boarded by Dutch customs who went through every scrap of paperwork.

Nothing life threatening and a worthwhile experience dancing with countless container ships off the entrance to the Elbe and then Bremerhaven and gliding through the big wind farm off the Fresians in the middle of the night

 

[lustyd]

But today's equivalent, the just announced Bene 34.1

That would be the equivelant of a 1990's 36 footer (or bigger) though, so not a good comparison to make.

 

[Daydream believer]

Certainly ! The worst culprit was the huge 2 drawer fridge / freezer. The 2 drawers were held shut by two small pieces of stainless steel which you turned 90 deg to cover the upper and lower corners of each drawer. The first wave we hit coming out into a 20 knot Baltic proper chop bent both the catches as the drawers flew open and deposited their contents all over the cabin floor, eggs and all.

The boat had a self tacking jib and on our 3rd or 4th gybe the jib (around 20+ knots true) car flew across completely off the track taking the end stop with it, the doors to the stern cabins and heads wouldn't shut properly and a couple of trim bits around the galley detached themselves. The electrics were a bit suspect, the AIS wouldn't talk to the plotters but thankfully the pilot worked.

So basically there was a minor software problem matching the ais to plotter. A faulty fridge catch, A couple of doors that needed adjustment, a bit of trim needed re glueing & The owner allowed the jib to crash gybecausing some damage ( which should really not have happened I agree) This last item being the only one that would really concern me as an owner. the others just annoying niggles that would soon be forgotten if the dealer sorted right away.
Then there was a spurious claim that there was no ensign. The owner did not buy a heater. --Wow

To be honest, if that was all there was to complain about, one really has little at all. The dealer would sort those items fairly easily. Certainly Inspiration Marine in the UK would have been on that like a shot.
Do you really think that is any worse than Westerly of old?
I know of one Westerlywhere they cocked up so much that the internal stern layout was supplied wrong & the manufacturer had to send staff to re build it at the owner's home port. Try that for pre sales quality checking

 

[westernman]

But today's equivalent, the just announced Bene 34.1 has a base price of around £180k. Its Hanse equivalent the 348 at the show with a reasonable spec was £185k.

Base list prices do not correlate well with réal sailaway prices for a decently specced boat after negotiation.

 

[Tranona]

That would be the equivelant of a 1990's 36 footer (or bigger) though, so not a good comparison to make.

The comparison was with a 1990s 351 - and yes it is a good comparison, which is why I chose it. It occupies the same place in the market - OK it may have more gear and a bit more space in the cockpit because of the fat backside, but it is 5 tonnes of boat, similar to the 351.

 

[Tranona]

Base list prices do not correlate well with réal sailaway prices for a decently specced boat after negotiation.

Indeed. Doubt many will come out at less than £200k which is the typical price suggested by YM.

In my experience the best negotiating tool is a good boat to trade in, then like cars the only figure that matters is the CTC (Cost to change). Today's shortage of late model used boats makes this even better from a buyer's point of view.

 

[lustyd]

I would disagree. The 351 was a 34' boat and the accomodation not as large as the 34.1 which (given the lack of sugar scoop) is really a 36 foot boat with a flat back and vertical front making it the equivelant of the next size up in the 1990s range. In fact the hull length is basically the same as the 361.

 

[Lightwave395]

So basically there was a minor software problem matching the ais to plotter. A faulty fridge catch, A couple of doors that needed adjustment, a bit of trim needed re glueing & The owner allowed the jib to crash gybecausing some damage ( which should really not have happened I agree) This last item being the only one that would really concern me as an owner. the others just annoying niggles that would soon be forgotten if the dealer sorted right away.
Then there was a spurious claim that there was no ensign. The owner did not buy a heater. --Wow

To be honest, if that was all there was to complain about, one really has little at all. The dealer would sort those items fairly easily. Certainly Inspiration Marine in the UK would have been on that like a shot.
Do you really think that is any worse than Westerly of old?
I know of one Westerlywhere they cocked up so much that the internal stern layout was supplied wrong & the manufacturer had to send staff to re build it at the owner's home port. Try that for pre sales quality checking

The UK Hanse dealer did indeed eventually sort the boat out, I agree entirely most issues were not serious but the fridge catches weren't faulty, they were pathetic and clearly designed for a boat sat in a marina. You can see in the picture the fridge freezer is rather substantial and not kind to the floor should it be projected a metre out when it lands on it




I'm obviously wrong, I apologise for thinking if I spend a quarter million plus (highly unlikely...) I'd have expected the fridge to stay closed, it made me wonder what else might be poorly designed or fixed on. As a sailor of modest experience I've never been to the Baltic before but having now sailed in -5 deg air temp and 20+ knots I understand why the sailing season is said by some to be June to September.

BTW there were no 'crash gybes', that's what made the track end stop flying off unacceptable, it was poorly fitted, I guess an experienced sailor such as your goodself would have gone right through every screw of every fitting to make sure it was firmly tight Not sure what you mean by 'spurious', not flying a country ensign was why the Dutch said they'd boarded us Made no difference to me as it wasn't my boat, in fact non of it bothered me prticularly, my job was simply to get it back to the UK, I don't think a comparison to a Westerly is quite right, this boat supposedly came off a'proper' production line with associated QC

 

[matt1]

I'm old enough to remember when these threads of old Vs new used to be a straight fight between...well, exactly that; Old & New

This latest one has introduced the new dynamic of "new but mine was the zenith year of manufacture and newer than mine aren't built as well" ;-)

 

[lustyd]

Lol and I've read enough threads like this to know that the average yacht speed of about 5kt has been getting faster and faster and faster, but is still about 5kt. Boats with really low windage can do 5kt but those with lots of windage also go about 5kt on average except for old gaffers which sail on average at about 5kt.

 

[Concerto]

This latest one has introduced the new dynamic of "new but mine was the zenith year of manufacture and newer than mine aren't built as well" ;-)

Exhibiting my 41 year old Fulmar at the show, I am hearing lots of similar comments from visitors to Concerto. Several Bavaria owners with boats from the mid 1990's have said they would not buy thire new product offerings. Then I have heard the same from owners of Hanse, Beneteau, et al and even Halberg Rassey.

Also I am hearing comments like it nice to be on a proper yacht like Concerto rather than the plastic fantastics and IKEA boats. There is certainly a market for more traditionally designed and finished boats. I doubt if any modern builder could make them at a competative price, especially in the under 35ft range. Several people have commented they know of people who are buying an older boat because they like the shape and construction methods and then paying for it to be fully refurbished with all the latest kit. It not only works out cheaper than buying new, it is usually delivered quicker to the owner and the owner has far more input in getting the boat how he (and or she) wants it.

 

[Tranona]

I would disagree. The 351 was a 34' boat and the accomodation not as large as the 34.1 which (given the lack of sugar scoop) is really a 36 foot boat with a flat back and vertical front making it the equivelant of the next size up in the 1990s range. In fact the hull length is basically the same as the 361.

You are getting too hung up on specific hull lengths rather than looking at where boats were positioned in manufacturers ranges. For a long time the 3 or 4 big builders had models starting at +/- 32' and going up in roughly 2' increments. So in the 90s the 351 was the second boat up in the range - just as the 34.1 is now. Of course over time the actual size , particularly in hull length of individual models varied but the hierarchy stayed much the same.

This does not hold so true these days as the fall in volumes of the under 40' means far fewer models and in particular the smallest have almost disappeared or become much more sportboat orientated and the 34.i is realistically the bottom of the cruiser range. These changes have come about mostly because charter operators have moved up in size. When I bought my 37 in 2001 there was a year waiting list for the 34 and it was by far the most popular charter Bavaria (along with the Bene 323 and Jeanneau 32).

Incidentally my 33 has the same waterline length and beam as the old 37 and the same displacement, but pricewise (in the hierarchy) it is closer to the older 33, around 15% less than a 37.

 

[matt1]

I’ts great (if a little partisan at times!) that we are individually so happy with our boat choices from the 70’s, 80’s right through to today’s models - I wonder if it’s something confined to boats given our emotional attachment to them?

 

[lustyd]

You are getting too hung up on specific hull lengths

I don't see that it's relevant where it sits in the range, otherwise we may very well end up comparing 20 footers with 40. The point I made was that it's the size of a 36 foot boat so the cost must be compared to a 36 foot boat to compare. Saying that the current 36 foot boat is more expensive in real terms than an old 34 foot boat is meaningless. I get what you're saying, they no longer cater for the low end of the market in that range, but that doesn't make them comparable.

 

[capnsensible]

Exhibiting my 41 year old Fulmar at the show, I am hearing lots of similar comments from visitors to Concerto. Several Bavaria owners with boats from the mid 1990's have said they would not buy thire new product offerings. Then I have heard the same from owners of Hanse, Beneteau, et al and even Halberg Rassey.

My old Moody 33 was born in 1977. I reckon on long distances, we averag something over 4 knots. My favourite yacht.

Earlier this year I had the pleasure of delivering a two year old Beneteau 381 from Guernsey to Sotogrande. We averaged just over six knots. A very comfortable and well mannered modern boat that I liked a lot.

A few weeks back, we had a tootle round The Canaries on a friends Hanse 445. Sails well but not too comfortable at sea, everything feels like it's in the wrong place. However with just under seven knots with engine and just over seven under sail
......An average of ..?...Seven knots.

I wonder if this speed thing has got anything to do with the waterline length or something? ?

 

[Tranona]

I don't see that it's relevant where it sits in the range, otherwise we may very well end up comparing 20 footers with 40. The point I made was that it's the size of a 36 foot boat so the cost must be compared to a 36 foot boat to compare. Saying that the current 36 foot boat is more expensive in real terms than an old 34 foot boat is meaningless. I get what you're saying, they no longer cater for the low end of the market in that range, but that doesn't make them comparable.

Once again the nominal hull length is not relevant. My 37 was actually 38'4" hull length, but there was also a 38 (39' long!) which was a far bigger and more expensive boat. The increments of 2' are no longer relevant as the market is not big enough to support so many different sizes. Ignoring the new 31' boats, where there used to be 4 or 5 different size models under 40', Hanse Bavaria and Jeanneau pnly have 2 and Bebeteau has 3, but suspect one is on its way out. Selling price is not solely related to cost, or size but where it sits in the market. With theBene they are using one boat to replace 2 models but it is still the second step in the range - next size up is 38.

What is not obvious is that the 31' are pitched at a much lower price point because they are simple at base of £110k compared with £ 160-180k with 34 in the model name.

 

[lustyd]

Once again the nominal hull length is not relevant.

Yes my point exactly, the accomodation on this is larger than an older 36 with a hull only slightly smaller. Comparing something the size of a 36 with the accomodation of a 36 to a 34 just makes no sense at all, especially when the conclusion simply shows that in real terms larger boats still cost more than smaller boats used to.

 

[lustyd]

I wonder if this speed thing has got anything to do with the waterline length or something?

Crazy talk, everyone knows speed comes from carbon and dyneema, and more electronics. Each extra screen has to be worth an extra knot...

 

[DoubleEnder]

Yes, I’m happy to say that I am one of those who gets a thank you email from Mr Wales occasionally.

Yup

 

[Tranona]

Yes my point exactly, the accomodation on this is larger than an older 36 with a hull only slightly smaller. Comparing something the size of a 36 with the accomodation of a 36 to a 34 just makes no sense at all, especially when the conclusion simply shows that in real terms larger boats still cost more than smaller boats used to.

The conclusion does not show that at all. It shows that boats of all sizes and types were stable for a long period of time but have shot up in the last 3 or 4 years. Buyers looking for a family cruiser in the mid 30' foot range (does not matter if it is notionally 34, 35 or 36' long do not have the range of choice compared with the past and real prices are substantially higher. Your conclusion does not make sense.