The NAvy WERE THERE at kidnap of Lynn Rival

[Clarky]

I agree something should have been done but the point I'm trying to make is what could have been done in practical terms, assuming the goal is the release of the hostages un-harmed. Some are quick to criticise but can't offer alternatives.

And yes, I started a desk job earlier this year after 23 years on the street. I figure that at the age of 51, having broken my back in a fight in 1987, I'm getting a bit to slow to be outnumbered fighting drunken twenty somethings with no chance of backup.

I still get out sometimes, though.

That is my point, nothing at all was done,there is no doubt something could have been done,at least preventing the escape of pirates and hostages at the least which might have led to a negotiated release.I am quite sure some embarrassed crew member leaked the story to embarrass whichever buffoon was in charge.
Sorry to hear about the back and good luck,will they not let you off on a sick pension at 26 1/2 yrs.

 

[Slow_boat]

That is my point, nothing at all was done,there is no doubt something could have been done,at least preventing the escape of pirates and hostages at the least which might have led to a negotiated release.I am quite sure some embarrassed crew member leaked the story to embarrass whichever buffoon was in charge.
Sorry to hear about the back and good luck,will they not let you off on a sick pension at 26 1/2 yrs.

I think that maybe I just get fed up with instant judgements and criticism and would like to turn it into constructive criticism. A sort of 'What next, skipper?'

And there's no chance of a sick pension. Apart from not needing one, there are folk being made redundant and a £20m shortfall in budget!

 

[jonjo]

"3 - Helo takes off and starts dropping grenades ahead of path of the skiff."

Well, fine, if they are near enough; see (1)

We are told Wave Rider got within 50 meters at some point in the action, so I think my assumptions are reasonable.

"4 - Helo continues over to mother ship and rakes bridge with m/g fire".

The "mother ship" in this case was a large Singapore owned container ship;

The ship might have once been owned in Singapore but the time in question it was a commandeered enemy combatant vessel supporting an act of violence against a British vessel in international waters. The owners would have to pursue damages through the Somali legal system.

As to the cost of a tow, I say put the container ship on eBay as a RN prize of war.

the pirates M.O. is to assemble the entire crew on the bridge; this is well known to those who actually have to deal withy these situations, which certainly includes the commanding officer of the RFA "Wave Ruler"

That is handy, now the captain of Wave Rider is free to direct fire from his 30mm cannon into other parts of the ship to disable vital systems.

 

[Woodlouse]

There are a lot of assumptions flying about here. Were do the Marines come from? Nothing I've read so far states that the RFA ship had any troops on board. All it mentions is 26 navy personal. They could have been running the laundry for all we know.

People have also ignored the fact that the RFA ship is an oil tanker. The pirates had RPG's. Do you really think the captain would want to get into a situation that could provoke return fire?

Like it or not I think the captain acted correctly. Sometimes it takes more balls to sit tight than it does to go in with guns blazing.

Anyway, it's all a moot point. If the RFA ship had intervened with the result of the Chandlers getting killed then you'd all be critisising the ship for botching up an operation it shouldn't be doing as it's not a military vessel or crew.

 

[jonjo]

There are a lot of assumptions flying about here. Were do the Marines come from?... All it mentions is 26 navy personal.

Royal Marines are navy personnel.

From April 2009

Via radio, Wave Knight ordered the dhow to stop and used a Royal Navy armed force protection team as well as the ship's own weapons team to provide cover. The pirate vessel complied.

The Commanding Officer of RFA Wave Knight, Captain Pilling, said:

"RFA Wave Knight is a modern replenishment ship designed to be able to support a myriad of coalition maritime operations. Our primary role is refuelling and aviation operations, but we are fully capable of conducting anti-piracy operations in and around the Horn of Africa."

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operatio...pirate-attacks

People have also ignored the fact that the RFA ship is an oil tanker. The pirates had RPG's.

I think it is double hulled. Anyhow the RFA's canon have double the range of an rpg and have you considered practicalities of launching an rpg from a high speed skiff.

 

[sailaboutvic]

.

Anyway, it's all a moot point. If the RFA ship had intervened with the result of the Chandlers getting killed then you'd all be critisising the ship for botching up an operation it shouldn't be doing as it's not a military vessel or crew.

at less they would had tryed to help these poor couply . how do you think they must had feel seeing a navy ship stand by and do nothing , if It was me in thier place or my son or daughter I would rather then try then to do nothing .

look at the danger there are in now , both held in some kind of hell hole , and it just been reported they are both very ill .

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

There are a lot of assumptions flying about here. Were do the Marines come from? Nothing I've read so far states that the RFA ship had any troops on board. All it mentions is 26 navy personal. They could have been running the laundry for all we know.

People have also ignored the fact that the RFA ship is an oil tanker. The pirates had RPG's. Do you really think the captain would want to get into a situation that could provoke return fire?

Like it or not I think the captain acted correctly. Sometimes it takes more balls to sit tight than it does to go in with guns blazing.

Anyway, it's all a moot point. If the RFA ship had intervened with the result of the Chandlers getting killed then you'd all be critisising the ship for botching up an operation it shouldn't be doing as it's not a military vessel or crew.

Thank goodness for a bit of sense at last! I have found this thread, in general to be offensive and insulting to the RFA and RN.
Most of it is utter rubbish written by a few "Armchair warriors" who know the square root of diddly squat!
The few sensible comments can probably only be answered by information which is most likely "Classified"
Can I suggest the thread is put to bed. I am all for free speach and expression of thought but this is becoming silly!
The person who breached security by leaking to the media should be H,D & Q.
One thing I can say is that I am sure, every one in Wave Knight, from the Captain down would be tearing their hair out in frustration at the situation. They deserve support and understanding not hysterical outpourings.

 

[Kukri]

at less they would had tryed to help these poor couply . how do you think they must had feel seeing a navy ship stand by and do nothing , if It was me in thier place or my son or daughter I would rather then try then to do nothing .

look at the danger there are in now , both held in some kind of hell hole , and it just been reported they are both very ill .

A word of caution; as any KNR negotiator will tell you, hostages may not be telling the truth. They may be speaking with a gun to their head or to the head of a colleague (fake executions in the course of a cellphone call to relatives have happened in recent cases with Somali pirates) or they may themselves have been deceived.

A "routine" tactic of the pirates is to settle the hostages down and get them to make calls saying that conditions are not too bad, they are safe, etc., in the first few days, then to start ramping up the pressure again.

Amongst the pirates' battery of tricks of their trade are reports of desperate illnesses; sometimes these are true and one hostage did in fact die in captivity but most such reports are fabrications.

One difficult aspect of the Chandlers' case is that unlike the two kidnapped journalists or the crews of pirated ships, they are not employees of an organisation with a secure and media-competent office. Negotiations through a Government are always more difficult and generally result in a higher ransom demand and longer detention.

The Somali pirates on the other hand are intelligent, media-savvy, people, who will ramp up discussion in the Press to their advantage in order to put pressure on the Government.

Don't ask me how I know this; I hope it may be reasonably clear.

 

[jonjo]

Most of it is utter rubbish written by a few "Armchair warriors"

"Armchair warrior" is a less embarrassing label than Admiral Royal Navy.

"Armchair warriors" who know the square root of diddly squat!

This thread has demonstrated that the flotilla of Navy apologists here know diddle squat.

We are told "what can a bunch of merchant navy personnel do?", "they have no weapons", "they have no training", "they were not on scene".

Claims that have all been debunked.

 

[drawkins]

Thank goodness for a bit of sense at last! I have found this thread, in general to be offensive and insulting to the RFA and RN.
Most of it is utter rubbish written by a few "Armchair warriors" who know the square root of diddly squat!
The few sensible comments can probably only be answered by information which is most likely "Classified"
Can I suggest the thread is put to bed. I am all for free speach and expression of thought but this is becoming silly!
The person who breached security by leaking to the media should be H,D & Q.
One thing I can say is that I am sure, every one in Wave Knight, from the Captain down would be tearing their hair out in frustration at the situation. They deserve support and understanding not hysterical outpourings.

I havn't seen any hysterical outpourings,just people discussing the ins and outs of the situation.some very interesting background information has emerged
if you find it offensive and silly just don't read it.

 

[Clarky]

Thank goodness for a bit of sense at last! I have found this thread, in general to be offensive and insulting to the RFA and RN.
Most of it is utter rubbish written by a few "Armchair warriors" who know the square root of diddly squat!
The few sensible comments can probably only be answered by information which is most likely "Classified"
Can I suggest the thread is put to bed. I am all for free speach and expression of thought but this is becoming silly!
The person who breached security by leaking to the media should be H,D & Q.
One thing I can say is that I am sure, every one in Wave Knight, from the Captain down would be tearing their hair out in frustration at the situation. They deserve support and understanding not hysterical outpourings.

Are you insulted because you are ex RFA or RN ?
If so you shouldnt be,the criticism is aimed at the decision makers and politicians.Clearly this vessel had the capability to intervene and at least stop the kidnappers returning to the mothership where effectively its game over for any rescue,so obviously the priority should have been to prevent that.The fact that those in charge then tried to cover up there incompetence by pretending the Navy wasnt 50 yards away makes matters worse and is typical of this goverment. Those that breached security should be given a medal,exactly what harm have they done by saying they were 50 yards away,hardly classifed vital information is it.
I am not an armchair warrior either.

 

[David_Jersey]

I wonder if he is a member here?

"Captain Dorey lives in Dorset with his wife and young son and enjoys a variety of recreational pursuits, from country walks, motorcycles and shooting to boating on the Thames and European inland waters"


http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/royal-fleet-auxiliary/rfa-flotilla/fast-fleet-tankers/rfa-wave-knight/commanding-officer/

 

[Woodlouse]

Just another, final point. Don't you think that a ship thats apparently fully capable of fighting pirates, with a captain experienced in military operations, with a helicopter, a cannon, and countless marines and guns.

Don't you think that there must have been a very good reason not to intervene?

 

[xxyyzz]

"Armchair warrior" is a less embarrassing label than Admiral Royal Navy.

They're probably more dangerous as well!

 

[jonjo]

Don't you think that there must have been a very good reason not to intervene?

Yes, I suspect it was called The Liberal Elite and the quisling culture at the MOD that has evolved over 13 years to fit in with New Labour executive incompetence.

It is time for the lap dog RN Admirals to realize they are the custodians of an institution with 300 years of noble history. Regime change is just around the corner and based on present performance and/or public perception, the politically astute choice of a Tory Government would be to let the brunt of the defense cuts fall on the RN.

Next time there is a chance, the RN captain at the sharp end should throw the circuit breakers on the Northwood command channel, then lock and load and do what the Royal Navy used to do. The captain's career and his ships's company is depending on him to save them from the breakers yard.

 

[halcyon]

Just another, final point. Don't you think that a ship thats apparently fully capable of fighting pirates, with a captain experienced in military operations, with a helicopter, a cannon, and countless marines and guns.

Don't you think that there must have been a very good reason not to intervene?

The whole thing reminds me of that Aussie soap with a little Warship.



Brian

 

[Kukri]

The public perception is what is worrying me. See the Grauniad report on the second new carrier being sold to India, which I linked to above. The RAF are probably far enough down the line with their new aircraft, but the RN are being bled white already.

Edited to add - the last Tory government came in with a plan to close down the Navy, which General Galtieri saved us from.

Right now, we are set for a re-run, with HMS Endurance (the "new" one) on her last legs and unlikely to be replaced and the Navy looking very cut-able once again.

I will declare a personal interest; during the Iran-Iraq war iranian gunboats treated neutral shipping, espescially tankers, as target practice until the RN set up the Armilla patrol. The good work the Navy does tends to be "invisible".

 

[jonjo]

Right now, we are set for a re-run, with HMS Endurance (the "new" one) on her last legs and unlikely to be replaced and the Navy looking very cut-able once again.

Yup welcome to Britain 2010.

We could not mount another Falklands mission, so it is time for the politicians to draw up a Hong Kong style 99 year lease exit plan.

As to defense cuts, I am with Max Hastings and the rationale that says we can only afford to fund one military service properly these days and that should be the Army.

 

[jonjo]

Thanks for making your agenda clear.

I have no agenda, just a general interest in seeing this country plot a credible future.

it would make more sense to keep the Navy and scrap the Army.

Why? Surely the rational choice is to fund the military institution which can can demonstrate that a warrior culture is alive and kicking.

The Royal Navy is a deceased military institution. The RFA Wave Rider incident is open to interpretation but the hands-up event in the Gulf was the de facto dismal finale of the Royal Navy.

 

[Mariner69]

the rationale that says we can only afford to fund one military service properly these days and that should be the Army.

And how would the Army enter into theatre and sustain itself?