The NAvy WERE THERE at kidnap of Lynn Rival

[toad_oftoadhall]

I always assumed that WWI tactics were lions led by donkeys sitting in a trench being bombed to bits or walking slowly towards machine guns and artillery pointing my Webley pistol.

In fact, my suggested tactics above, are quite the opposite.

Your tactics are utterly donkey-like and fail to address even the very basic requirement of keeping the hostages alive.

Moreover your tactics are at odds with all other hostage situation tactics I've ever heard of. They even differ from the Iranian Embassy Seige which you yourself cited as a good way to deal with hostage situations. They also differ from what people who were there with all the information available decided to do.

It doesn't really help your case that you claimed to have relevant training and then had to admit that you didn't.

It's easy to deter hostage takers. Don't pay them. Shooting the hostages yourself is not the best way to avoid paying the ransom.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Toad. Stop telling lies.

It doesn't really help your case that you claimed to have relevant training and then had to admit that you didn't.
.

And how quickly can you support that statement? I find it very offensive that you state that I have claimed to have had relevant (Hostage) training. I have checked every post I have made and I have stated quite clearly that I have not been trained in such a way.

Moreover your tactics are at odds with all other hostage situation tactics I've ever heard of. They even differ from the Iranian Embassy Seige which you yourself cited as a good way to deal with hostage situations. They also differ from what people who were there with all the information available decided to do.

Again you are telling lies. The only reference I made to the Iranian embassy siege was to say:

"Think back to Balcombe Street and the Iranian Embassy, once arse was kicked, few ever tried it again and went for softer countries."

My post in full:

Not fair to shoot the messenger! Wave Ruler's PR apparatus bill her as a pirate buster.

But as I said earlier, sometimes the risk has to be taken that a hostage or two gets caught in the crossfire. The French did it and I expect their flagged vessels are viewed on as a last resort now.

I don't wish it on anyone, but history shows that is you meet terrorism/piracy (I see piracy as not much less that terrorism, but with monetary gain rather than ideological)

Think back to Balcombe Street and the Iranian Embassy, once arse was kicked, few ever tried it again and went for softer countries.

In any hostage rescue the hostages lives are at risk the moment you attempt a rescue. Recently, in North Afghanistan Cpl Harrison, of the Parachute Regiment, died during an operation to rescue New York Times reporter Stephen Farrell and his interpreter Sultan Munadi.

Mr Munadi was killed in the crossfire but Mr Farrell was successfully freed.

Before that, Bombardier Brad Tinnion was killed in Sierre Leone rescuing the Royal Irish Rangers who had been captured.

Rescues are hazardous, but in the long run they act as a robust deterrent and anything is better than watching the perpetrators going about their business unmolested.

When steveparker suggested I was an "Internet warrior", I replied that "My training was to attack immediately, dominate with fire and seize the day", which of course every soldier is trained to do , from the company cook upwards. If you saw that as 'hostage training' I'll let it go as general ignorance as to how soldiers are trained.

I trust an apology will be forthcoming. Not that I care one jot what you think. But I do care that you tell lies about what I said.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

And how quickly can you support that statement?

You said: "My training was to attack immediately, dominate with fire and seize the day." Then later it transpired this training was nothing to do with hostage situations.

Again you are telling lies. The only reference I made to the Iranian embassy siege was to say:
"Think back to Balcombe Street and the Iranian Embassy, once arse was kicked, few ever tried it again and went for softer countries."

So to be clear, do you regard the Iranian Embassy Seige as the correct way to deal with a Hostage situation? (FYI: They did nothing until one hostage had been shot and it was clear that hostages were in immediate danger.)

 

[Major Catastrophe]

You said: "My training was to attack immediately, dominate with fire and seize the day." Then later it transpired this training was nothing to do with hostage situations.

I never said I was 'hostage trained' and refuted it immediately it when you first brought it up, but you still decided to make a lie out of it.

So to be clear, do you regard the Iranian Embassy Seige as the correct way to deal with a Hostage situation? (FYI: They did nothing until one hostage had been shot and it was clear that hostages were in immediate danger.)

I really don't understand your problem. My post was nothing about the rescue but all about the legacy of the rescue.

Please stop peddling more lies about me.

 

[timbartlett]

You're right, we do. It almost invariably achieves the survival of the hostages.

Steve.

And it invariably achieves the survival and encouragement of the pirates.

 

[sailaboutvic]

don't let some few shut you up

What come out clearly from this thread and other thread relating to pirates

1 there are some very strong feeling running

2 what ever any one say’s there always someone else ready to jump in and find fault

And 3 if you don’t agreed with the majority you are liable to be shouted down and bullied into keeping quite .

there have been some very good points made and some silly one but we still have the freedom of speak ( just about) in the UK so..... let other have there say....

Good on the one that keep these thread going , it will keep the plight of the chandles to the for-front of people minds,

 

[Woodlouse]

1. It is very difficult to hold someone hostage at close quarters with a rifle.

You keep on going on about this. Do you think it's possible that the pirates in their experience have also worked this out and take a couple of pistols along with them for holding hostages?

 

[Slow_boat]

Sure, all alternatives should be considered. There are posts here accussing the captain and crew of Wave Rider as incompetent cowards, which is not a conclusion that I draw and wish to dis-associate myself from.

 

[Theshipscat]

Good on the one that keep these thread going , it will keep the plight of the chandles to the for-front of people minds,[/QUOTE]

Gordon? is that you?

 

[xxyyzz]

So to be clear, do you regard the Iranian Embassy Seige as the correct way to deal with a Hostage situation? (FYI: They did nothing until one hostage had been shot and it was clear that hostages were in immediate danger.)

I missed the bit in that where they let the terrorists disappear into a hostile country with no clue of where they might be and about 2 days head start.

Sitting around on your arse is fine when the situation is stable but lets face it even the SAS aren't in a position to even find the Chandlers now, let alone do anything about it.

 

[Lancastrian99]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

1. The RFA's name was Wave Knight, not Wave Rider, Wave Ruler or even Wave Goodbye.
2. This incident should not be confused with earlier incidents involving Wave Knight or Wave Ruler. In the Caribbean, Wave Ruler carried a US combat team, specially to board smuggler's vessels.
3. RFAs are manned by civilians who are trained to man the ship's weapons in self defence. They are not trained snipers or Special Forces.
4. The ship's helicopter was a Lynx. No doubt it could be armed though how anyone imagines it could be used without endangering the hostages is beyond me.
5. The 26 RN personnel were the embarked flight consisting of the aircrew and the majority being maintainers. Like all service personnel they are small arms trained but they are not snipers or Special Forces either.
6. There were no Royal Marines or other "troops" present.
7. The "mother ship" was a hijacked merchant ship with its crew held hostage.
8. ROE are laid down by politicians and anyone breaking them will end up in court on serious charges.
8. This is the view of the First Sea Lord - Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, the First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Service, praised the crew of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel Wave Knight for locating the hijacked yacht of Paul and Rachel Chandler.

However, he said there was no one on board trained in hostage rescue, and any action by the crew could have led to the Chandlers being killed. “Two dead Chandlers would not have been good, and we wouldn’t have wanted to be part of that,” Admiral Stanhope told The Times.
9. The full story of Wave Night's actions in this incident are yet to emerge and are unlikely to do so until the hostage situation is resolved.

 

[timbartlett]

You're right, we do. It almost invariably achieves the survival of the hostages.
Steve.

And it invariably achieves the survival of the pirates.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

And it invariably achieves the survival and encouragement of the pirates.

Clue: The ransom is the only motive the kidnappers have.

If you do nothing the the kidnappings stop.

Nothing is the right thing to do unless you've got a good chance of a successful rescue. And in this case the guy on the ground who had carried out rescues before decided it was not worth the risk based on the circumstances of the time. I'll trust his judgment over any of the uninformed and often delusional red necks on this thread!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

it will keep the plight of the chandles to the for-front of people minds,

Which is exactly what the Pirates want. Lots of discussion. Lots of media coverage, lots of pictures of the Chandlers looking scared. Ramps up that ransom money nicely.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Clue: The ransom is the only motive the kidnappers have.

If you do nothing the the kidnappings stop.

Nothing is the right thing to do unless you've got a good chance of a successful rescue. And in this case the guy on the ground who had carried out rescues before decided it was not worth the risk based on the circumstances of the time. I'll trust his judgment over any of the uninformed and often delusional red necks on this thread!

The ransom has become the main motivation, whether it is for goods or people, but theft of property is still a very real opportunity for these people and is where many of them started. I can see no reason to assume that the attacks would stop if the ransoms weren't paid.

What might happen is that the captors decided to kill a few hostages to see if that encouraged the next lot to pay up of course.

Could you advise if I am now an "uninformed, often delusional. red neck armchair general" and, if not, which bits did I fail? I believe redneck is normally written as one word by the way, unless they're posh red-necks in which case it may be hyphenated.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The ransom has become the main motivation, whether it is for goods or people, but theft of property is still a very real opportunity for these people and is where many of them started. I can see no reason to assume that the attacks would stop if the ransoms weren't paid.
What might happen is that the captors decided to kill a few hostages to see if that encouraged the next lot to pay up of course.

Personally, I can't see why financially motivating kidnapping would continue if ransoms were not paid. If the kidnappers want to try to switch tactics and move into theft then great, that's much easier to deal with.

Could you advise if I am now an "uninformed, often delusional. red neck armchair general" and, if not, which bits did I fail?

For me the bit that really marked you out as a total ****ing nutter was when you said you weren't happy that everyone went home alive in the Iranian RIB drama.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Which is exactly what the Pirates want. Lots of discussion. Lots of media coverage, lots of pictures of the Chandlers looking scared. Ramps up that ransom money nicely.

so what do you sugest , we should just forget them ?, stand back and do nothing , just like the RN did , is that your answer ???

well I for one don't what to forget them . but you can if you like ...

and yes you can shout me down but you wont shut me or other who have strong feeling that these couple need our help and we should be doing some thing to help them .

 

[Sea Devil]

so what do you sugest , we should just forget them ?, stand back and do nothing , just like the RN did , is that your answer ???

well I for one don't what to forget them . but you can if you like ...

and yes you can shout me down but you wont shut me or other who have strong feeling that these couple need our help and we should be doing some thing to help them .

Of course everybody is allowed to follow their own conscience and spend their own money in any way they like to help these people. I am not too certain anyone is allowed to spend my (tax) money unless the government of the day thinks it is a good idea.

I had a UK citizen dieing in a remote anchorage in the Red Sea and contacted by radio our Embassy in Saudi for help - a helicopter to get the person out to a hospital. Their response was - Who will pay for it? I said I would and they said how and I said CC and they said we can't do that over the radio(SSB).. At the time I was outraged but the way the system works is that if you get into trouble overseas the consulate/embassy will help in a general way but in the end you need to pay for transport, hospital fees, ransom demands yourself.

The state does not finance those things...

If you set off to sail away to far away places with strange sounding names you also choose to 'look after your own affairs'. Of course you can ask for help but it is not a right. I am sorry for the Chandlers having had a pirate attack and robbery in the Gulf on my own circumnavigation I know the feeling to look down the barrel of a automatic weapon but if you go to violent dangerous places then ............ It is your - their choice and they knew the risks.

 

[Theshipscat]

Very True. They should've changed their names to Mr and Mrs Lloyds TSB before they left.

Now Here's the solution for all gung ho fans. A leisurely cruise along the coast of Somalia. Please bring your own high powered weapons if you have them. If not we have a fully functional armoury on board for your rental. I shi ite you not this is real.
I've also heard there's a Russian boat offering a similar kill a pirate cruise.

http://www.gunslot.com/forum/somali-cruise-package

 

[Sea Devil]

I received the following from Ecoterre who monitor pirate 'happenings' off Somalia

Thought it might amuse....
SPANISH SECRET SERVICE GOT FOOLED - LOST ONE MIO$ - ENDANGERS SCIENTISTS
Money lost not so important, but scientists protest against the cover the agents used
Three Spanish agents from the National Center of Inteligencia (CNI), disguised as "anthropologists", tried to buy the freedom of the three Spanish sailors - two Gallicians and a Basque - of FV ALAKRANA, which the Somali pirates said they kept on land to be exchanged for two Somalis in prison in Spain, the Spanish newspaper EL Mundo revealed.
The Spanish agents met in the town of Hobyo with a contact they were told by the French secret services to be someone holding a high position in the Somali Ministry of Defence.
They closed the deal for one million dollars, paid the money and they waited in vain for the sailors. The pact never materialized and the fake Government stooge, who "was perfectly dressed and wore a gray suit ", disappeared - with the one million dollar.
The Spanish agents received support and cover of the French secret services and the Americans.
The agents of the CNI had been one week in Djibuti trying to enter Somalia and finally they crossed the border under the cover of being three anthropologists, who dedicated themselves to the study of that country.
The Spanish government tried to cover up and it is important to remember that on 7th of November, the Spanish minister of Foreign Affairs, Miguel Ángel Moratinos, communicated to the press and to some relatives of the sailors that the three crew who had been brought on land already had returned to the Alakrana.
The CNI centre did neither confirm nor deny the story of the tricked three agents, while an investigation by the cabinet is said to be under way.
Other sources in Somalia confirmed the story of the tricked Spanish agents, but said that there was besides the French also a link to a Ukrainian connection.