The NAvy WERE THERE at kidnap of Lynn Rival

[grumpy_o_g]

That's pretty obvious.



Wrong. The pirates had the hostages and could easily kill them. Why is that not a stalemate given the clear rules of engagement that the lives of the hostages were not to be endangered by any provocative action? RFA fire warning shots. Pirates shoot a hostage in the leg. RFA do what exactly next? Nil points, fella.



Yeah, read about the seige of the Beslan school or however many other bungled rescue attempts. One of the hostages in that instance was shot over 40 times in the back when the kidnappers went crazy. And then deal with the whole issue of escalation. Tell me why, if you were a pirate and the RFA had just killed a bunch of other pirates, you wouldn't figure it was time to get serious and start killing hostages to announce your serious intentions. I sure would. There are millions of dollars to be made from this stuff. Who cares if I kill a few Danish or Russian sailors if that's what it takes to get people like you to shut up and start listening?

I dunno, really. You sound sort of pre-WW1 in your tactical sophistication and grasp of the big picture.

Cheers,

Steve.

Could I ask what your training is then? You seem to be well-versed in the subject. I will understand if the OSA prevents any further comment.

 

[snowleopard]

Disregarding all the testosterone-fuelled posturing here, there seem to be two schools of thought:

a) The navy (troops on the RFA or the nearby warship) could have taken action but didn't.

b) They could have done nothing.

Either way, all the navy's presence out there is doing is to make laughing stocks of themselves and us.

I bet there are a few in Buenos Aires today wondering if the time is right for another bash at the Malvinas.

 

[Kukri]

Disregarding all the testosterone-fuelled posturing here, there seem to be two schools of thought:

a) The navy (troops on the RFA or the nearby warship) could have taken action but didn't.

b) They could have done nothing.

Either way, all the navy's presence out there is doing is to make laughing stocks of themselves and us.

I bet there are a few in Buenos Aires today wondering if the time is right for another bash at the Malvinas.

As I pointed out much earlier in this thread a really good way to encourage them is to withdraw HMS ENDURANCE and not replace her, just as the Tories did last time - the present one is falling to bits and needs replacement right away.

 

[alant]

Human Rights & Asylum!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-yacht-couple-Paul-and-Rachel-Chandler.html


I just cant believe wht I have just read.
The Navy were within 50 feet of the Lynn Rival when the pirates sped away.
I know there were risks of life, but surely this cant be right at all.
It was an RFA, but had a helicopter and troops on board. HMS Cumberland was 2 hours away.

Well, should the Navy have been empowered to do something?

Comment in the Daily Mail - so it must be true, is that
(1) the pirates human rights were being protected
(2) the pirates, if captured, would have claimed asylum & given all the associated benefits they could claim back in the UK.

ie just like naughty kids, give them rewards, not a stick!

 

[louis]

The RFA was very well armed and had sufficient fully trained people including RN personnel on board to use them. Until HM government alters the rules of engagement the same thing could happen again. The fact that the RFA is civilian manned is neither here nor there - British police are civilians but when armed can use deadly force when required. In any case when an RFA is operational it sails under special Orders in Council that by-passes certain parts of the Merchant Shipping Act requirements.

 

[Sea Devil]

a hostage being caught in the crossfire is an unfortunate consequence of robust action, but one death may prevent many in the future as pirates will be reluctant to deal with flagged vessels that are capable of fighting back.QUOTE]

Seems to me that the Chandlers were very silly people indeed to venture into that area.
I am not sure that even the safe corridor through the Gulf is actually safe because once you have armed, men on board your yacht who will kill a hostage or two as soon as blink rescue is almost impossible. The French tried the 'hard' line approach and killed one of the hostages, themselves I suspect, by mistake.

Many merchant ships now carry 'mercenaries' on board but there is always a risk to the civilian crew when they are attacked.

To quote yesterdays report in ECOTERRA INTERNATIONAL:-

A dead captain, soldiers on board civilian freighters, record ransoms and shoot-outs almost daily: When pirates attacked the chemical freighter MV Theresa VIII, with a South Korean crew of 28, they didn't hesitate. The captain, who fired flares during the attack, was injured so badly by gunfire that he died one day later. END QUOTE

I receive this 'news letter' daily and almost daily there is a report of either an attack or capture of a ship.

Be very clear that the 'pirates' are the foot soldiers of very serious criminal organisations in Somalia who actually handle the negotiations and take the lions share of the 'profit'. Killing a few foot soldiers is not going to stop desperate starving men from a country where life is so cheap as to be unimportant, from grasping the opportunity of going out in small boats to attack mostly very big ships.

The problem is Somalia.

My solution for the Chandlers is for the Government to negotiate and quietly pay some ransom. The Spanish do it. The Greeks do it. American shipping companies do it as does every other major shipping company in the world.

The Chandlers will be released as the 'hostage business' can only work if for the most part both sides keep to the 'deal'.

The problem of Somalia will not go away with 'gung ho' gun boat action... It is a problem that dwarfs Afghanistan - They are starving in their thousands. War Lords rule the country killing and maiming without conscience and the government is both totally corrupt and totally out of control... What to do? Answers on a post card..

Michael

 

[snowleopard]

The problem of Somalia will not go away with 'gung ho' gun boat action... It is a problem that dwarfs Afghanistan - They are starving in their thousands. War Lords rule the country killing and maiming without conscience and the government is both totally corrupt and totally out of control... What to do? Answers on a post card..

No no no, the pirates are not starving people, they are very profitable businesses with the organizers making a very comfortable living. There are reports for example of a teacher turning to piracy to improve his lifestyle and earning 50K a year at it. The people at the top of the tree are making millions and living like oil sheiks.

 

[Sea Devil]

No no no, the pirates are not starving people, they are very profitable businesses with the organizers making a very comfortable living. There are reports for example of a teacher turning to piracy to improve his lifestyle and earning 50K a year at it. The people at the top of the tree are making millions and living like oil sheiks.

Thank you. That is my very point. Hundreds of thousands are starving to death in Somalia. It is a country in chaos and even people with 'good' jobs will turn to 'coastal defence' if it offers a decent standard of living rather than poverty and hunger. Look at the images of the 'pirates' surrounding the Chandlers in the video. None are fat, none are well dressed, none are wearing body armor. The problem is the country and what is there to do about a sovereign state, a country where the last time the USA sent in special forces in great number they were decimated by the locals?

The Chandlers were very silly but not alone. Circumnavigating yachts are still going through the area each season hoping the 'safe corridor' will be just that. I think they are ill advised so to do but the merchant marine of all nations has a different problem and if any of them are taken hostage then of course ransom is going to be paid so the UK stance that it is unacceptable is somewhat out of date.

What would all the military strategists on this forum do about Somalia?

 

[xxyyzz]

What would all the military strategists on this forum do about Somalia?

Ha ha A thousand armchair generals march forth..

Go along the coast and destroy any boat that looks like it could be used as a pirate vessel.

 

[Theshipscat]

I know it's a bit late in the thread but... Could it be possible that the gangsters had radio? Maybe they had other hostages on board the mother ship and informed the Navy what would happen if they intervened. Just a thought.

 

[Sea Devil]

From my experience in the area I would guess it's possible. What is more likely is that they would hold guns to the head of the Chandlers... Certainly pull the trigger on one if they were actually attacked.

In reality how are you going to take out a small boat? You really would need to 'board' it from another small boat and nobody can shoot accuratly from a moving platform. The outcome is certain to be messy...

The big problem is the big problem not minor incidents involving rather foolish civilians. They are still alive and most probably some sort of 'quiet' deal will be done... If not well tough. Our regard for human life seems to be related to 'publicity' involved...

 

[Theshipscat]

We could do an exchange with some of the hardcore forumites on here. See if they'd be so willing to shout "fire" if they were the hostages?

 

[Sea Devil]

I suppose very few of them have actually had a gun held to their heads or pointed at their heart...... Lots of armchair Generals, but why not?
What I find interesting is that nobody wants to have an opinion about what we should do about Somalia.........

 

[Theshipscat]

You missed the last Solmali Pirate conversation on here. Lots of suggestions most of them involving bombs, invasions and something about canibals too. You should take a look.

What would you suggest then?

 

[Sailfree]

What I find interesting is that nobody wants to have an opinion about what we should do about Somalia.........

By international agreement put a 12ml territorial limit and arrest all boats outside that 12 mls, Confiscate the boat and sink it and return the people under cover of darkness to an empty Somalian beach.

Give all Somalians captured a statement to this effect. When Somalia polices itself then its boats can be allowed back into international waters.

Quick off the cuff answer! I am sure others can do something better.

 

[David_Jersey]

I suppose very few of them have actually had a gun held to their heads or pointed at their heart...... Lots of armchair Generals, but why not?

I don't think having a gun held to your head or heart makes anyone an "expert"...........or stupid enuf to swap with some (non related) hostages .

I have said a number of times very happy to have a boat shot from under me, and willing to accept the risk that it would not go well.........sometimes in life the best option is still a very sh#tty one

Have had a gun held to the back of my head (although on a distant shore, not really a Pirate thing - more drinking related to my warm & freindly personality .........some people have simply no sense of humour ) not the most troublesome situation I have ever got into as didn't even interupt my drinking session that evening , not from any Chuck Norris style actions from me or anyone else - but simply from yours truly taking the opportunity to buy a round for the bar and to buy time for some cavalry to arrive, not in a shoot 'em up manner but simply to verbally reinforce the message that some actions will have consequences, and that the more disproportionate the better / funnier. Sadly the RN / the UK no longer have the capacity to make folks think twice about tommorow (It's not so much about firepower, far more about willpower).


The answer to Somalia? Do a search! I am sure to have covered that previously ........but a quick recap:-

Recognise Somaliland as an independent Nation - that's the 1/3rd next to the gulf and has a functioning administration - with aid / military support they could provide some maritime security and be a stick to beat or simply threaten the other 2/3rds with.

Puntland is the 1/3rd on the horn of Africa, autonomous region but does not want independence from Somalia. Tribal structures still in place, so whilst still a lawless sh#thole not quite in the same mess as the bottom (Mogadishu) 1/3rd..........I would offer Puntland aid to assist with running their region (until such time as the Country as a whole is peaceful
- might be a while ) and military assistance to establish coastal maritime defence forces to at least keep their own coast line free of major piracy (the big advantage the locals have is knowing where the pirates and their families / freinds / tribe live, not just now but in 12 months). Maybe even deliver them a new fishing fleet to protect...........of course large chunks (most?!) of the aid will be looted - that's the point, wanta reinforce power structures that exist and make it in their self interest to help us / wipe out their rivals.......if they want to do all that whilst waving the flag of Allah, then who gives a sh#t? Any reluctance to engage with "da plan" can be met by targetted sanctions........outta da doors of a B52

The Mogadishu 1/3rd Nuke it Failing that I would sink all the captured ships (tough titty on the hostages), flatten the places that have nice houses and new 4x4's and find a warlord or 2 to back with airpower, coastal bombardment and some choice weaponary. And maybe the odd Special Forces raid ashore, just for fun If a Warlord can't seize control with Nato style airpower and resources it means you have picked the wrong Warlord. Pick another. I would not be overly fussy if "our" pet Warlord acted under the flag of Allah, indeed would be very helpful for doing all the things that would need to be done and which for Western Troops are crimes against humanity.........

None of the above is rocket science, nor pretty - but perfectly doable.


Just seen the 12 mile limit idea. I like that Certainly for the Mogadishu 1/3rd. maybe for Puntland one of the incentives could be over 12 miles for boats that have been tagged with AIS (being public info would mean the shorebased owners would also need to suppress piracy. onshore).

 

[Sea Devil]

I have said a number of times very happy to have a boat shot from under me, and willing to accept the risk that it would not go well.........sometimes in life the best option is still a very sh#tty one

But the trick is to survive! 'The life you have got is all that you've got.' That is the problem we in the West have got.. Most of us believe that if we are shot off the perch then the lights go out for ever.. A lot of other peoples believe in life here after....

If a Warlord can't seize control with Nato style airpower and resources it means you have picked the wrong Warlord. Pick another. I would not be overly fussy if "our" pet Warlord acted under the flag of Allah, indeed would be very helpful for doing all the things that would need to be done and which for Western Troops are crimes against humanity.........

We have established 'pet warlords and presidents' for decades India, Vietnam, Iraq and they all failed... Afghanistan at this moment is an international joke nobody knows how to get out of... It would appear that history says puppet governments do not survive so its seems a bit daft to go on and on making the same mistake...

 

[maxi77]

What would all the military strategists on this forum do about Somalia?

I suspect you will get the same answer as I got to my earlier question as to how they would have saved the Chandlers. Silence.

 

[Vamoose]

Dont blame the Navy

Dont blame the Navy... Blame the Politicians and International Lawyers who lay down the rules of engagement which the Navy has to obey.. Im sure there were plent of guys on board itching to get stuck in given half a chance.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I suppose very few of them have actually had a gun held to their heads or pointed at their heart...... Lots of armchair Generals, but why not?
What I find interesting is that nobody wants to have an opinion about what we should do about Somalia.........

I am not sure about you being an armchair general, but I was once at a VCP in Northern Ireland when we stopped a car in a line of traffic in a country lane and the passenger pointed a rifle at me and another soldier, for a second there was a stand off, when another member of the patrol realised what was happening and let rip with his single shot SLR.

The bad boys took off sharpish with rounds wizzing after them and we later heard that every shot missed the occupants, but then the SLR was not an ideal weapon for close quarter work.

I can never be sure if he intended to shoot or just fell into the trap we placed by sighting the VCP in a place where a car cannot reverse out or turn round and decided that a small show of force would encourage us wave him on.

Two things came out of that incident.

1. It is very difficult to hold someone hostage at close quarters with a rifle.

2. When faced with return fire, they run, rather than shoot, because if they had shot first, that would made more of the patrol return fire. (It was very dark and only one soldier could see what was going on)

I am convinced that these pirates do not want to die and if they are challenged with warning shots, they must know that if they kill their hostages, they are next.

But then, I am accused above of "You sound sort of pre-WW1 in your tactical sophistication and grasp of the big picture."

When I next meet up with my old staff college tutors, I will dine out on that!

I always assumed that WWI tactics were lions led by donkeys sitting in a trench being bombed to bits or walking slowly towards machine guns and artillery pointing my Webley pistol.

In fact, my suggested tactics above, are quite the opposite.