The Men In Black Visited

[jonjo]

In case anyone was thinking that documentation was only needed for a foreign cruise, I was inspected recently during a West Country cruise. A Customs RIB arrived in the visitor’s area of the marina and a sizeable team systematically inspected all boats.

They did not seem interested in checking for out of date flares, or ensigns or gaps in my log book, which I assume can be attributed to the chaotic representation of UK officialdom in the marine environment. Shame really because I wanted to exhibit my brand new offshore flare pack.

The MIB focussed on ships papers, passports, insurance and the VAT status of my boat.

The whole inspection was carried out with a pleasant rapport. At the end I asked if there was an obligation to maintain a better log book, their reply… this is not part of their remit but the MCA could review the log book in the event of other trouble.

 

[tangomoon]

You were guilty about crappy logbook keeping

 

[BlueSkyNick]

There isnt an obligation to keep ships papers or VAT on board, is there? I only take them to the boat when we're going away, and keep them firmly locked away at home otherwise. Also, insurance is nothing to do with HMCE, nor are passports come to that.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
There isnt an obligation to keep ships papers or VAT on board, is there?... Also, insurance is nothing to do with HMCE, nor are passports come to that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am completely confused to be honest, but since the MIB were a decent down to earth mob they did not trigger my anti establishment militant tendencies, so I did not contest their requests.

I feel government representation in marine affairs is an antiquated mess. We need a new lean and mean organization called simply "British Coastguard" run on military standards. This should incorporate:

The marine elements of Customs & Excise plus their 7 cutters
Fishery protection
The SAR helos
Offshore RNLI lifeboats
The call center operatives that yap on Channel 16
The real coastguards otherwise known as Coast Watch
Sea plod
Trinity House
Hydrographic Office
Port based elements of the Passport and Immigration Service.
Marine Accident Investigation
Any other useful bits of the MCA

 

[machurley22]

Well - that's that sorted then.

Next please.

 

[Neraida]

They came aboard our friends boat in the marina today and asked various questions, mostly surrounding ownership and proof of VAT, quite repetitively.
Whilst they were very nice, it felt a bit odd to be boarded in a home port and so extensively questioned. I think they may well be back soon, as our friends don't keep the bill of sale onboard; something they were rather keen to see.

 

[BrendanS]

I'm going to save this thread, for next time someone posts a ' Vat status isn't important, and I've never been asked, so why worry' type thing

 

[cliff]

What are the requirements to maintain a log book? I mean a dinghy sailor won't keep one I am sure so what is the cut-off point where one is legally required to maintain a log book? Does anyone know the LEGAL details - I am not interested in "I keep one because I need to log hours for my dazed or whatever skipper course"
---------------------

Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity

 

[rwoofer]

I'm the same. It seems people don't accept anything other than originals when they are really needed, which means the safest place to keep them is at home.

These supposed rules and regulations really do annoy me. We are all a pretty law abiding bunch, but there is such a lack of clarity as to what is the correct thing to do, we're bound to fall foul at some point.

 

[yoda]

While I understand the need to ensure VAT is paid on goods produced or imported after a certain date I have still to find out how I can avoid difficult questions with regard to a boat built in the 1960s and kept in the UK evr since. Only if you can prove it was actually in the UK on one day back in 1972 (I think) can you be sure to be able to prove there is no VAT liability. Isn't it high time HMRC allowed us to show them all the facts we have and for them to produce a certificate stating there is no VAT due?

As for MIB asking for the other stuff I'm not aware of any legal requirement to have anything they were asking for unless the boat is believed to be from abroad - which of course most AWBs are...........

Yoda

 

[charliespan]

Mission creep.
Today it is VAT paperwork ,passports(?) and logbooks,
Tomorrow it will be qualifications ,authority to sail
and a "producer" if you are not carrying a sheaf of papers.

A lot of people (including me) are too worried to put up
much of an argument.I have nothing to hide but that won't stop them
dismantling my boat if they get arsey.

Definitely needs clearing up <u>exactly</u> what can be
legally asked for on a UK registered yacht in UK waters.

 

[David_Jersey]

They are looking for Terrorists, Illegal Aliens, Guns, Drugs and contraband fish fingers therefore they can ask for whatever they want. and if not satisfied can then demand it - rather than it being purely a "Boat inspection".

They know that you know that being un-cooperative risks having the boat trashed and maybe you and yer family getting fisted by a man with a rubber glove......without them having to actually say anything.

IMO it is just another form of state bullying that you folks seem to have gone in for in a big way in recent years. All designed to make you feel safer / be seen to doing "something" / reinforce the power of the state / a job creation scheme........sooner or later you will need permission to set sail - after all, folk doing what they want without official sanction must be wrong.......


Of course I could be wrong - they could be combatting Global Warming / Cooling / Change / occassional mild drizzle (sorry, I am not up to date).

 

[Lakesailor]

I'm not a coastal sailor so these points are not of great import to me. But you are absolutely right in suggesting that these are points which need proper clarification.
Most boat owners want to be seen to be doing things properly and without a definitive set (not disparate bunch) of regulations it must be very difficult.

The mention of old boats and VAT is one in point. Surely the Vat value of a boat that is over 40 years old is negligible and whilst they wouldn't be expected to proffer a certificate that suggested you had paid VAT, there could be an Exemption of Duty Due to Indeterminate History (they love big titles) Certificate. VAT officers, like Tax Inspectors, need to show a profit in their inspections and policing, and a single visit with an outcome in a statement of none-liability leaves them free to move on to more profitable inspections. Like older cars (pre 1972) there can't be an awful lot, or more to the point, a huge value, that fall into the category.

Again there seems to be a complete lack of understanding or clarification with respect to log books. Considering all the theory and practical courses and qualifications in seamanship that are being touted daily, why is this?

It would be good to see more threads like this than the endless and seemingly pointless threads about flags and who's a lazy boy and left it up after dusk.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

What d'ya mean? Adopt a common sense approach with one government agency with sole responsibility and accountability for providing effective and efficient services??? It'll never catch on.

 

[jonjo]

Yes but no, don’t call it an “agency“. Agencies have chief executives who cut their management teeth in the demanding world of the charity sector. Agencies are dominated by health & safety culture and persecute a junior employee for rescuing a teenage girl hanging on a cliff, because he effected the rescue without due regard for H&S procedure.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, insurance is nothing to do with HMCE, nor are passports come to that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well HM Customs & Excise seem to have come a long way from their historic role of raising an income to fund the Monarchy.

From my inspection I guess their current interests in descending order of priority are:

People trafficking.
Drug trafficking.
Terrorism.
VAT evasion.

 

[rallyveteran]

Why are HMCE responsible for people trafficking? - surely that should be Immigration.

Slightly off topic - I'm on board my yacht in Dingle, close to the Western extremity of Ireland and was visited yesterday by a customs officer "doing a survey, you know" which consisted of filling in a long form containing the sort of information that would be requested if you had changed customs jurisdiction (e.g gone from one Caribbean island to another) but would not normally be needed in the EU. Quite why he was charged with doing this so far from the "border" beats me, but I supplied all he asked for without needing to produce any paperwork at all, so I was relaxed about it.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
...They did not seem interested in checking for out of date flares, or ensigns or gaps in my log book...

[/ QUOTE ]
Nor would they be, none of those items come under their jurisdiction. In fact flares and log book come under nobodies jurisdiction as you have no legal requirement to keep either on board a small leisure vessel in the UK.

This is what they are responsible for:

"HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) was formed on the 18 April 2005, following the merger of Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise Departments. Work is still continuing on our office restructuring programme. We are here to ensure the correct tax is paid at the right time, whether this relates to payment of taxes received by the department or entitlement to benefits paid.

We collect and administer:

Direct taxes - paid by you or your business on money you earn or capital you gain.

Capital Gains Tax.
Corporation Tax.
Income Tax.
Inheritance Tax.
National Insurance Contributions.
Indirect taxes - paid by you or your business on money spent on goods or services.

Excise duties.
Insurance Premium Tax.
Petroleum Revenue Tax.
Stamp Duty.
Stamp Duty Land Tax.
Stamp Duty Reserve Tax.
VAT.
We pay and administer:

Child Benefit
Child Trust Fund
Tax Credits.
We protect you by enforcing and administering:

Border and frontier protection
Environmental taxes
National Minimum Wage enforcement
Recovery of student loans. "

About the only bits that affect boats are VAT, Excise Duties and Border and Frontier protection.

 

[jonjo]

Mission creep is inevitable given global events this decade, and the UK problem with immigration and the UK's obsession with Health & Safety. As a UK citizen I accept my rights will change as the Government deals with new problems.

My gripe is with the chaotic interpretation of law by such a mixed-ability posse of government and charity sector officials working for different departments or organizations. Consider what has been reported in this forum over the past year:

<ul type="square">[*]The offshore racing yachtsman who went overboard at night mid channel. He was in the water for a few minutes before the crew competently picked him up. The Coastguard dispatched a lifeboat which arrived on scene well after the event and then enforced a pick up of the "casualty" with threatening behaviour.

[*]Next was the retired RN Commander sailing happily along offshore who suffered a forced rescue by the RNLI because some officious Coast Guard prat in a surveillance plane flying overhead started misquoting major oil spill laws to justify the rescue. The RLNI lifeboat Coxswain was too poorly trained to challenge the order.

[*]There was the YBW forum member who accepted a lift ashore from the RNLI from his mooring having previously fallen off his dinghy. Later he discovered he was chalked up as a RNLI rescue statistic.

[*]Most recently we heard about some black-suited RIB-driving police wannabe commandos, hyped up about their role in Gordon Brown’s war on terrorism. They intercepted a family yacht on a Solent day sail and had the audacity to state that a formal letter should have been carried authorizing the presence of the child friend of the daughter also onboard.
[/list]
As I suggested in another post, what we need is a single Government maritime department operating with a consistent interpretation o the law and which is applied by employees who have received the same training about their rights.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are HMCE responsible for people trafficking? - surely that should be Immigration.

[/ QUOTE ]
In theory yes, but I doubt officials from the immigration department would enjoy spending hours at sea in their new smart airport uniforms. Do they even have a fleet of offshore capable ships to support a proactive maritime presence similar to HM Customs?