The MCA is planning on scaling back the number of marine offices.

[dom]

I denied that and asked you to quote your reference to see if I might have forgotten and had said someting in a particular context. As I do not remember having done so and see no reason whatever why I might have done, so I reiterate my request that you justify your post. This makes the 6th time that I've asked you to justify one allusion, accusation or another - such justification you have never provided.

No offence, I was just making clear that the SNSM has nothing whatsoever to do with your personal vendetta against the RNLI.

Oh and don't forget there's always the Charity Commission in the unlikely event that you finally sort out your accountancy/governance/Shannon gripes, not to mention the RNLI's attendance at a recent Dublin march.

"Facts are the enemy of truth!" cried Don Quixote de la Mancha and perhaps he was right. Perhaps the RNLI is covertly funding the UK's ongoing windmill proliferation and perhaps you will find the...

...erm smoking windmill :encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:

 

[jordanbasset]

I have however spoken with the President of the SNSM, Xavier de la Gorce, concerning the respective financial positions of the two organizations. He remarked, tongue in cheek, that with their wealth the RNLI could perhaps give a hand to the relatively young SNSM (est'd 1967) given the number of British boats in French waters. He was about to meet the Minister to see if the state would up its 8% contribution. (Finally, state + local authorities = 18%)

Okay so from what you have said before the SNSM produce great boats very cheaply. They pay their managers far less than the RNLI. They have many volunteers. But they not only charge to rescue boats but they also need a tax payer subsidy of 18%, not only that but they want even more money from Government.
Are you saying that is the example the RNLI should be following?

 

[Tranona]

Okay so from what you have said before the SNSM produce great boats very cheaply. They pay their managers far less than the RNLI. They have many volunteers. But they not only charge to rescue boats but they also need a tax payer subsidy of 18%, not only that but they want even more money from Government.
Are you saying that is the example the RNLI should be following?

Glad we are now getting to the real heart of the argument.

The French service operates on a hand to mouth, cash constrained budget. Its operational requirements are different from the UK. It is dependent on politically determined hand outs from government and the generosity of other agencies in allowing it the use of their facilities.

As a consequence it cannot invest in the future, has no real technical capability, cannot build its own boats, does not have its own training facilities, does not own its own launch facilities, and owes no obligations to previous employees. It therefore has to buy modified commercial designs of boats rather than have custom designed boats with a longer life. It does a pretty good job given the severe constraints under which it operates.

On the other hand the RNLI is completely independent, has 150 years of accumulation of intellectual, physical and monetary capital which enables it to have its own technical department, manufacturing facilities, own much of its real estate, finance the best training facility in the world and tailor make its own boats to meet its operational requirements, many of which are very different from those experienced in France. They do a pretty good job.

The only significant point of commonality is that they both provide rescue services at sea. Other than that they have little in common, just as neither, apart from the provision of rescue services, have anything in common with the way the US Coastguard is financed and organised.

Therefore as I keep on reminding Sybarite, any attempt at the sort of comparisons he tries to make is pointless. Apples and oranges. Context is all. By all means raise questions about the way each of the organisations goes about achieving its objectives with the resources available to it, but trying to make comparisons between disparate organisations is pointless. That approach has been discredited and discarded in management academic circles years ago, and nobody takes it seriously. But then it seems from much of what he says on this type of subject he is well rooted in the past.

 

[Bru]

I'll ask again for a link to an SNSM lifeboat that meets the operational requirement that Shannon was designed to meet

Not a boat that meets some of the requirement. Nor a bitsa this boat, bitsa that boat fantasy. An actual production boat that can actually do what Shannon can do.

 

[Sybarite]

No offence, I was just making clear that the SNSM has nothing whatsoever to do with your personal vendetta against the RNLI.

Oh and don't forget there's always the Charity Commission in the unlikely event that you finally sort out your accountancy/governance/Shannon gripes, not to mention the RNLI's attendance at a recent Dublin march.

"Facts are the enemy of truth!" cried Don Quixote de la Mancha and perhaps he was right. Perhaps the RNLI is covertly funding the UK's ongoing windmill proliferation and perhaps you will find the...

...erm smoking windmill :encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:

No offence? You have twice inferred that I have been making up things about the SNSM griping about the RNLI.

Do you really have to lie to try to win an argument?

 

[Sybarite]

Glad we are now getting to the real heart of the argument.

The French service operates on a hand to mouth, cash constrained budget. Its operational requirements are different from the UK. It is dependent on politically determined hand outs from government

It operates efficiently on an almost completely volunteer basis. The history of the SNSM is recent; it merged a whole series of independent lifeboats which local mariners established. Each was largely funded by the local community concerned. Since 1967 they have been acting together to develop synergies which means that they have a lean yet effective service. This is reflected in their boats: superb without the frills but wholely adapted to the task in hand.

...and the generosity of other agencies in allowing it the use of their facilities.

Which are?

As a consequence it cannot invest in the future,

It has a whole roll-out schedule for its boats. It has scheduled deliveries in such a way that it will get rebates on the present price.

It has no real technical capability,

Apparently your French is not up to understanding what their technical director said.

cannot build its own boats,

nor would it want to when there are already established and specialized yards capable of building them.

does not have its own training facilities,

It does.

does not own its own launch facilities,

Most are kept afloat but they do have their own lifeboat houses eg at my homeport of Trévignon.

and owes no obligations to previous employees.

. Where do you get this rubbish from? First of all there are around 70 employees (1700 less than the RNLI) and, as are the rules for all French companies, obligations eg pensions are funded through obligatory contributions to outside organizations.

It therefore has to buy modified commercial designs of boats

.

Commercial design? Any boat that is bought or sold is the result of a commercial transaction. To imply that these are not purposely designed is again absolute rubbish.

What they did do was to understand that both pilot boats and lifeboats have to be capable of operating in all weathers and so the same design is applicable to both: ie 25knot speed, unsinkable and self-righting. This standardization allows for greater production runs and reduced prices. It enables them to choose a lifeboat form which already exists rather than taking over 13 years to develop a new one, which is a rational idiocy.

rather than have custom designed boats with a longer life.

They have a designed operating life of 30 years - same as for the Shannon.

CORRECTION Longer than the Shannon " And with an operational lifetime of 25 years, the Shannon class lifeboat will provide lifesaving cover for years to come."

It does a pretty good job given the severe constraints under which it operates.

The French have a "can do" approach.

On the other hand the RNLI is completely independent, has 150 years of accumulation of intellectual, physical and monetary capital which enables it to have its own technical department, manufacturing facilities, own much of its real estate, finance the best training facility in the world and tailor make its own boats to meet its operational requirements, many of which are very different from those experienced in France. They do a pretty good job.

And with the easy living they develop bad habits - spending money just in order to spend it.

Therefore as I keep on reminding Sybarite, any attempt at the sort of comparisons he tries to make is pointless. Apples and oranges..

Thanks for the reminder. I wonder how I have survived all this time without you!

Context is all.

The context is the same: saving lives at sea.

That approach has been discredited and discarded in management academic circles years ago,

Maybe some of those academics should get into the field a bit more and see what happens in the real world.

and nobody takes it seriously. But then it seems from much of what he says on this type of subject he is well rooted in the past.

Apart from your position of saying that you know better than anybody else, would you like to try to add some substance to your argument?

 

[Sybarite]

I'll ask again for a link to an SNSM lifeboat that meets the operational requirement that Shannon was designed to meet

Not a boat that meets some of the requirement. Nor a bitsa this boat, bitsa that boat fantasy. An actual production boat that can actually do what Shannon can do.

If you had not such a blinkered approach, you would find the answer in my previous post.

Forgetting for the moment the beach launch facility for which the French have alternative solutions, it would appear that this aspect is only required at some 20 or so locations around the UK. If you are maintaining this is the one essential characteristic which différentiâtes the Shannon from the French boats and justifies why it is three times more expensive, it seems to me to be a very extravagant solution for the other locations where beach launching is not required.

The other aspect which apparently characterizes the Shannon is that it has jet drives for shallow water operations. Big deal. French boats have had them for over 30 years. The NG (new generation) is available with jet drives too as required. eg the one for the Belgian "Reddingsdienst" which has to operate in the shallow waters off Ostende. Tell me what else the Shannon can do that the NG cannot to justify the price tag. Seats with shock absorbers?

You might want to look at the video of the sister boats operating in the notorious Bass Straight. I wonder why the Australians bought a French design when there was such a fantastic RNLI design ? Oh yes, in-house manufacture cannot be geared up for opportunities like this. Have they sold any licences so that others could build them?

Incidentally the RNLI facility currently only builds the hull, deck and wheelhouse. The rest is done at Berthon's.

 

[Tranona]

Maybe some of those academics should get into the field a bit more and see what happens in the real world.



Apart from your position of saying that you know better than anybody else, would you like to try to add some substance to your argument?

I have time and time again shown how your so called analysis is either badly done or irrelevant. I cannot help it if you are unable to see that.

All you are doing now is confirming what I said - the only real commonality is in the basic objective of operating boats for rescue at sea. Just about everything else is different as you are constantly telling us. so why try and compare two very different organisations. You may, of course form an opinion that one is "better" than another, but doing the kind of pointless analysis that you attempt is not the way to do it.

You have to judge the effectiveness of an organisation against its objectives - not against those of other organisations.

Despite what you may think academic management thought is firmly grounded in the real world, and no more than in the case of comparative analysis and benchmarking - as the techniques only exist to deal with real world issues. So don't give me all this rubbish about it not being relative, nor dismissing it just because you have failed to understand it.

I am not, and never have argued that one organisation is "better" than another - in fact firmly stated that they both do a good job - but on their terms, not yours.

 

[Sybarite]

You have to judge the effectiveness of an organisation against its objectives - not against those of other organisations.
.....
no more than in the case of comparative analysis and benchmarking...
.

When you stop contradicting yourself, get back to me.

 

[Bru]

So the French do not have a lifeboat that meets the operational requirement Shannon is designed to meet.

Well, we all knew that didn't we!

OK, now point me at a production design anywhere in the world that meets the operational requirement Shannon is designed to meet

And you can't keep walking away from the beach launch aspect. It is a critical and essential requirement for the Mersey replacement

(Whether it is extravagant to then use Shannon sans launching system at other locations is an interesting point but let's deal with the nub of the matter first)

 

[Bru]

Oh and do check your facts. Berthon are no longer involved in RNLI AWB production which is now entirely in house at the All Weather Lifeboat Centre

You, of course, will see that as a bad thing. I,however, having spent substantial chunks of my engineering career having to deal with the problems outsourcing inevitably leads to, see it is a very good thing indeed

 

[Tranona]

When you stop contradicting yourself, get back to me.

Where is the contradiction? Very consistent. Your fundamental argument is flawed.

Comparative analysis is appropriate when there is something to compare - but when you have huge differences, such as here comparisons cease to be useful.

I have highlighted the differences that make such comparisons as you are trying to make inappropriate - and you don't accept it because if you recognise the differences your whole argument falls apart.

Lets face it, these two organisations know eachother well, work together when necessary, share ideas etc - but still do things differently. They do this because, as you cannot deny, they have different origins, different histories, different operational requirements and above all different levels of funding. so why try all the tit for tat detail comparisons?

I have no doubt that if the RNLI had a different history, etc and constrained funding it would do things differently - but it does not.

I am sorry that you have difficulty with "real" worlds - or more correctly worlds that you do not understand (there is no such thing as one, independent world, only the one relevant to the phenomenon you are studying). These two organisations inhabit different worlds so should be treated differently.

Comparative analysis as you want to do it only has value if the two organisations have a high degree of commonality - and these two do not. Of course you can do detail comparisons of specific aspects of the two - so comparison of boats might be possible. However, once you get past the basic features - such as size you come across so many fundamental differences (as you are constantly pointing out) that the comparisons serve no useful purpose. the boats are different - so what? Each organisation has arrived at a design of boat that it believes is the optimum for the job, given the resources available. Hurray for commonsense.

RNLI has chosen to own many of its own stations. Why? simply because that is the only way it is able to provide the service in those locations because of the lack of deep water all weather ports. It has chosen to develop fast, beach launched AWBs. Why? because it can provide a better service.

Now the important question. Why does the French service not do the same? Well, of course first, it does not have the requirement for those characteristics. Even if it did, it has neither the capability nor the funding to develop a suitable boat and such boats are not available from commercial builders.

This is the kind of analysis that is useful - not looking for why things are not the same, but exploring why the differences exist. If the operational requirements, funding and history were similar, it is likely that the organisations and their solutions would tend to be the same - but (at the risk of repeating myself) they are not.

So, pointless to go any further as your argument is not relevant to the real worlds in which these two organisations operate - their worlds are too different.

 

[chanelyacht]

I'll ask again for a link to an SNSM lifeboat that meets the operational requirement that Shannon was designed to meet

Not a boat that meets some of the requirement. Nor a bitsa this boat, bitsa that boat fantasy. An actual production boat that can actually do what Shannon can do.

Don't hold your breath.

I asked if the SNSM classes were equivalent in terms of command & control (he obviously doesn't understand what SIMS is) and crew safety, and all I got was a sarcy comment about only the English knowing how to build boats.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the first question about the boat he highlighed being self righting or not.

Classic accountant - cost of everything, value of nothing knowledge.

 

[Sybarite]

does not have its own training facilities, .

Just on this specific pôint :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h2rSbwDKE

 

[Sybarite]

Oh and do check your facts. Berthon are no longer involved in RNLI AWB production which is now entirely in house at the All Weather Lifeboat Centre

You, of course, will see that as a bad thing. I,however, having spent substantial chunks of my engineering career having to deal with the problems outsourcing inevitably leads to, see it is a very good thing indeed

Better tell Berthon then.

 

[Bru]

Better tell Berthon then.

Don't need to

Berthon built the first twelve Shannons but production has now been moved entirely to the new in house facility at RNLI HQ

(Not that it matters whether they're built in Poole or Lymington, the skills, jobs and so on are happily firmly in the UK)

 

[Tranona]

Just on this specific pôint :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6h2rSbwDKE

So, a simulator for driving a boat, a classroom and a bit of practice recovering a casualty in calm waters.

Suggest you come over to Poole and see the range of facilities, including the only dedicated indoor survival pool of its type in the world, and the range of courses offered on all aspects of rescue at sea. Residential accommodation on site for students, many of whom come from overseas. regular real life exercises including joint exercises with other agencies. All this goes on continuously.

If you are a member you can stay in the excellent accommodation, use the bar and dining facilities and tour the training facilities.

You have to recognise that the RNLI operates on a massively different scale - unsurprising given that it has massively more resources at its disposal. No doubt if it did not have these resources it would scale back its activities to fit within the resources available. However there are no signs that the resource level will change in the future so unlikely there will be anything other than evolutionary change.

See what I mean by different worlds.

 

[Sybarite]

Don't hold your breath.

I asked if the SNSM classes were equivalent in terms of command & control (he obviously doesn't understand what SIMS is) and crew safety, and all I got was a sarcy comment about only the English knowing how to build boats.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the first question about the boat he highlighed being self righting or not.

Classic accountant - cost of everything, value of nothing knowledge.

Of course I know what SIMS is. It's a computer game that each crew member can play with instead of keeping a watch out for the people in distress. The SNSM boats have the instruments they need to do the job including heat imaging cameras which the RNLi doesn't have or didn't have until recently.

How long have you been waiting to try to place the Wilde quote? In fact you aren't the first.

I made no concrete affirmation about the SNS280 other than its speed. I said that it looked as if it might be self-righting but if it isn't "je me contrefous royalement".

OTOH both the CTTs and the NGs are self righting as the videos plainly show.

 

[Sybarite]

So, a simulator for driving a boat, a classroom and a bit of practice recovering a casualty in calm waters.

Suggest you come over to Poole and see the range of facilities, including the only dedicated indoor survival pool of its type in the world, and the range of courses offered on all aspects of rescue at sea. Residential accommodation on site for students, many of whom come from overseas. regular real life exercises including joint exercises with other agencies. All this goes on continuously.

If you are a member you can stay in the excellent accommodation, use the bar and dining facilities and tour the training facilities.

You have to recognise that the RNLI operates on a massively different scale - unsurprising given that it has massively more resources at its disposal. No doubt if it did not have these resources it would scale back its activities to fit within the resources available. However there are no signs that the resource level will change in the future so unlikely there will be anything other than evolutionary change.

See what I mean by different worlds.

I suggest you look at some SNSM clips where you will see that most of the training is carried out by dedicated trainers at a local level. In addition they have a central training site which you said didn't exist.

Do you honestly think that RNLI volunteers can do their job better than French ones?

Before responding please watch the appropriate clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPQE3GfkrOo

If you are a member you can stay in the excellent accommodation, use the bar and dining facilities and tour the training facilities.

So they're into the hotel business now as well as investment management? Wow what will be next?

 

[Bru]

So they're into the hotel business now ...

No, they have accommodation at the training centre which, when not in use by crews on courses, they make available to members. Since that makes a financial profit, I would have thought you of all people would approve.