The ideal blue water yacht

[coopec]

Let me say from the outset that I am biased as I'm building a long keel yacht with an unbalanced rudder but how can you argue with this

The makings of a bluewater boat
April 27, 2018
Knowing very little about what we were embarking on, we joined the Bluewater Cruising Association and asked as many people as we could about what we should be looking for in an offshore yacht. In the Pacific Northwest, the consensus seemed to be that the “bluewaterness” of an offshore yacht boiled down to six main elements: a long keel, a skeg-hung rudder, heavy displacement, reputable offshore builder, large water and diesel tanks, and a cutter rig or ketch design.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator

 

[Pete7]

Let me say from the outset that I am biased

No, really ?

 

[robmcg]

Wasp nest................ Big stick!!! ?

 

[Poey50]

Interesting article, thanks. Sampling real-word experiences and testing those against the assumed ideal for crossing the Pacific is quite the eye-opener

"Of the 56 boats examined [who crossed the Pacific] in this study, nine (16 percent) met all the aforementioned criteria for a bluewater boat. On average, the boats met 41 percent of the criteria. One boat met none of the criteria, and 15 boats (26 percent) only met one criterion. Eighteen boats that crossed — just under a third of those surveyed — are on John Neal’s list of preferred boats for offshore cruising."

So, despite the apparent consensus, people just seemed to do it anyway. Good for them.

 

[RJJ]

Let me say from the outset that I am biased as I'm building a long keel yacht with an unbalanced rudder but how can you argue with this

The makings of a bluewater boat
April 27, 2018
Knowing very little about what we were embarking on, we joined the Bluewater Cruising Association and asked as many people as we could about what we should be looking for in an offshore yacht. In the Pacific Northwest, the consensus seemed to be that the “bluewaterness” of an offshore yacht boiled down to six main elements: a long keel, a skeg-hung rudder, heavy displacement, reputable offshore builder, large water and diesel tanks, and a cutter rig or ketch design.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator

Did you read any of the rest of the article? Like when they actually went for a Dufour 35? And "We were never fully confident in our little Dufour as an offshore vessel until we got to the Marquesas. It wasn’t only that she got us there in one piece, but more that upon arriving we saw boats of all ranges and shapes. We saw new Beneteaus and Jeanneaus and even Hunters and Lagoons — all light displacement, fin keel, spade rudder, no bilge, fractional-rigged sloops. “What’s going on?” I asked myself. “How did all these non-offshore boats get here?”

Intrigued by this surprising revelation, I endeavored to learn more about what kind of boats cross the ocean. I gathered data from 56 boats that crossed the Pacific between 2016 and 2017, and researched their features to see how many checked the boxes on the bluewater list. The results called into question the traditional perspective and reflect the new era of weather forecasting and navigation."

 

[RJJ]

content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/16057419193161371289766.jpg

 

[RJJ]

The list of boats that successfully made it across the Pacific in the last couple of years does challenge the traditionalist perspective about essential offshore elements. What explains the discrepancy between what we think should be crossing an ocean and what is actually crossing? The most likely explanations are: weather forecasting and preventative maintenance.

So what actually makes a bluewater boat? You do.

 

[RJJ]

content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/16057419193161371289766.jpg

Struggling to paste the chart, but of the six criteria, long-keel and skeg-hung rudders weren't at all popular. The most popular of the six was tankage, which can easily be remedied or compensated for. In total, the article supports the direction of the previous thread...there are people who go sailing, and people who talk a lot about the unsuitability of certain boats.

Good for you building your boat. May she serve you well. Bet I get across the Atlantic and back before you do.

 

[ip485]

I also suspect there is blue water sailing and then some ?

 

[Laminar Flow]

I read the article, thank you.

I have a few observations to make:

As Poey 50 said, people go with what they've got.

The author's survey shows that 2/3 are moderate to heavy displacement. To be clear, most cruising boats tend to end up in that category, i.e. you start out light and end up moderate or you go from moderate to heavy. That goes in hand with the amount of gear one lugs around and the tankage necessary to cross the Pacific. Carrying rows of jerry cans on deck will quickly move you on from your former light displacement category to the next.
The exception to this are larger boats with a small crew (1-2, 3 maybe) that are consequently comparatively lightly loaded or extremely disciplined ascetics who thrive on freeze dried foods and cut off the handles on their toothbrushes.

Overloading a light boat is not conducive to performance and boats designed with a more generous displacement from the outset are often more capable at carrying an extra load without compromising speed or seaworthiness.

Heavy displacement boats are not necessarily slow, they can be if they started out as something lighter and ended up heavy.
A much better way to access performance is by SA/Displ. ratio. To be clear, we are talking about displacement craft here. A heavy displacement boat with the same SA/Displ as a lighter one, will actually be faster than the lighter one in light conditions. This can be irregardless of keel shape: I have out-ghosted a Pogo 30 in my own long keel tub with a high SA/Displ. ratio. This the authors got wrong.

A long keel is not as close-winded as a short keel. That is simply not true; feel free to ask any owner of a Folk boat or a Skerry cruiser. Beyond that: there are long keels and then there are long keels, both good and bad. The major disadvantage of a long keel is wetted area and in some, the resistance to steering in reverse.

Long keels are more directionaly stable than fins going downhill in a blow. Some are, but that is not a given just because a boat has a long keel. Some fins do that quite nicely as well.

Ketch or cutter are the best (preferred) rigs. Having owned and sailed both variants, I very much doubt that. Going downwind in a ketch the mizzen is in the way, going uphill, it is just along for the ride. Going downhill in a cutter: one headsail or the other is always blanketed. I have a severe learning disability, it seems: I am on my second and, now cutter rigged, ketch.

 

[coopec]

I read the article, thank you.

I have a few observations to make:

As Poey 50 said, people go with what they've got.

The author's survey shows that 2/3 are moderate to heavy displacement. To be clear, most cruising boats tend to end up in that category, i.e. you start out light and end up moderate or you go from moderate to heavy. That goes in hand with the amount of gear one lugs around and the tankage necessary to cross the Pacific. Carrying rows of jerry cans on deck will quickly move you on from your former light displacement category to the next.
The exception to this are larger boats with a small crew (1-2, 3 maybe) that are consequently comparatively lightly loaded or extremely disciplined ascetics who thrive on freeze dried foods and cut off the handles on their toothbrushes.

Overloading a light boat is not conducive to performance and boats designed with a more generous displacement from the outset are often more capable at carrying an extra load without compromising speed or seaworthiness.

Heavy displacement boats are not necessarily slow, they can be if they started out as something lighter and ended up heavy.
A much better way to access performance is by SA/Displ. ratio. To be clear, we are talking about displacement craft here. A heavy displacement boat with the same SA/Displ as a lighter one, will actually be faster than the lighter one in light conditions. This can be irregardless of keel shape: I have out-ghosted a Pogo 30 in my own long keel tub with a high SA/Displ. ratio. This the authors got wrong.

A long keel is not as close-winded as a short keel. That is simply not true; feel free to ask any owner of a Folk boat or a Skerry cruiser. Beyond that: there are long keels and then there are long keels, both good and bad. The major disadvantage of a long keel is wetted area and in some, the resistance to steering in reverse.

Long keels are more directionaly stable than fins going downhill in a blow. Some are, but that is not a given just because a boat has a long keel. Some fins do that quite nicely as well.

Ketch or cutter are the best (preferred) rigs. Having owned and sailed both variants, I very much doubt that. Going downwind in a ketch the mizzen is in the way, going uphill, it is just along for the ride. Going downhill in a cutter: one headsail or the other is always blanketed. I have a severe learning disability, it seems: I am on my second and, now cutter rigged, ketch.

Thanks for your response.

I'm not surprised that people go with what they've got. I was very surprised the findings on Ketch or Cutter. Everything I've read suggests there is no need for ketches these days with modern day furling and winches. (But I think ketches look great anyway!)

I equate Blue Water Yachts as being a bit like Clydesdale draught horses - big, heavy, slow but powerful. To knock them because they can't show jump (or gallop) is a bit illogical. ?

Actually Clydesdales aren't too slow!! WOW!

One of the criticisms of Blue Water Yachtsmen is that gear (bow rollers, bollards, cleats etc) on production yachts is too light for a cruising yacht.

Here is an interesting article
Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

 

[dankilb]

Okay, I’ll bite!

I vote for ‘the boat people own’. Or if not, closely followed by, ‘the boat they can afford’ (and acquire nearby).

That is why the sacred ‘bluewater’ anchorages of the world are - shock horror - filled with JenBenBavs and the like.

I appreciate that prevailing makes/designs are different down under (half of my family live in SA, and a few more in WA, so I speak from experience). But here in the Northern hemisphere ‘Euro’ AWB marques prevail!

I don’t speak from any position of bitterness or perceived inadequacy! We’re often told how ‘bluewater’ our own Jeanneau is - but many of these features (tankage, dorades, rigging gauge, etc.) could be added in a refit.

We do have a skeg-hung rudder - and that we appreciate - but I’d readily go without one.

 

[dankilb]

...or if you ask an Internet forum, YouTube comments, or sensationalist yachting magazine article, the answer is: long keeled, protected rudder, narrow beam, heavy layup, preferably 1970s, etc.! ?

Can’t afford one (or more likely, to refit one)? Don’t buy that 38ft/42ft AWB whatever you do! But don’t worry, you can still afford a shagged Contessa 32 and you’ll be much the safer for it!

 

[Pete7]

Do we actually make long keeled mono hulled yachts anymore? is boat manufacture driven by demand and customer choice? if so looks like sailors are voting with their wallets on what short of boat they want. Will the long keeled ketches of the 1970s become antiques or even dinosaurs?

Also what is 'blue water'? and is a blue water yacht rather limiting? what happens when the North Atlantic is grey and stormy? Or how about the English Channel when its brown in colour.

I vote for ‘the boat people own’. Or if not, closely followed by, ‘the boat they can afford’ (and acquire nearby).

Quite

 

[differentroads]

I dare say trade wind sailing has something to do with the success of awbs, boxy catamarans, etc following their blue water cruising dreams. Good on 'em, I say.

I developed my own dreams reading Hiscock, the Pardeys, Moitessier and others from the 60s, 70s and 80s. My own boat is a heavily built and conservatively rigged 10m cutter (slow but comfortable), with a long encapsulated fin keel and skeg hung rudder ( both of which I have beefed up.) Everything about her says 'go anywhere in any kind of weather'. Will I? Probably not. Biscay, dossing about in the Med and maybe a trade wind cruise is more like it.

So for me the answer to the OP's 'the ideal blue water cruiser' is whatever boat fulfills whatever ambition you have. Mine is to live out dreams that took forty years to mature. Others want to have a glamorous youtuber lifestyle. Others to raise a family in the relative freedom of the seas. And others want to set records or go places that few cruisers have been to. There's no one ideal boat for that range of purposes.

 

[coopec]

Do we actually make long keeled mono hulled yachts anymore? is boat manufacture driven by demand and customer choice? if so looks like sailors are voting with their wallets on what short of boat they want. Will the long keeled ketches of the 1970s become antiques or even dinosaurs?

Also what is 'blue water'? and is a blue water yacht rather limiting? what happens when the North Atlantic is grey and stormy? Or how about the English Channel when its brown in colour.
Quite

The boating industry will produce yachts that the general public wants and 99.9% of people don't want to do a circumnavigation. ?

 

[Bobc]

Yawn. He just can't leave it alone.

Dig away, I'll send you a bigger spade.

 

[dunedin]

Yawn. He just can't leave it alone.

Dig away, I'll send you a bigger spade.

Precisely. And “a boat on the sea is worth two on the hard”.

 

[doug748]

Let me say from the outset that I am biased as I'm building a long keel yacht with an unbalanced rudder..........

Can't say I think your long keel is strictly necessary for crossing big seas but I see no harm in it. Should be very comfy.

There are a lot of newish, crap sailing boats around for the job and they probably wouldn't kill you either but they would be very comfy at the other end. One bloke took one in the last ROW jamboree, took him ages and he broke several things but he went round the three capes, fair play.

My feeling is, that it just depends what your priorities, finances and skills are. That will will give you your answer. Of course everyone's answer will be different, so everyone is wrong yet totally correct. That's why these threads have a half life approaching that of Uranium 238.

.

 

[coopec]

What are Blue Water Sailboats
All About?


Why Blue Water Sailboats are the Ultimate in Offshore Cruising Sailboats

Can't say I think your long keel is strictly necessary for crossing big seas but I see no harm in it. Should be very comfy.

There are a lot of newish, crap sailing boats around for the job and they probably wouldn't kill you either but they would be very comfy at the other end. One bloke took one in the last ROW jamboree, took him ages and he broke several things but he went round the three capes, fair play.

My feeling is, that it just depends what your priorities, finances and skills are. That will will give you your answer. Of course everyone's answer will be different, so everyone is wrong yet totally correct. That's why these threads have a half life approaching that of Uranium 238.

.

Yes, I wonder what life span these "newish, crap sailing boats" will have?

There's plenty of yachts built in the 60s and 70s still sailing meaning they are 50/60 years old. How long will the "newish" sailing boats last if they can't take a grounding?

There is no way I'd buy a 20 year old yacht unless I knew its' history.