the huge surplus of used boats

[BurnitBlue]

I am not sure that a photo of a noisy engine would be much more informative.

Some sellers now include a sound track video of the running engine. Yes, limited info but demonstrated that the engine runs.

Could have took two hours to start the thing though.

 

[zarathustra]

Our boat sold last December in weeks (in the UK) for very close to the asking price. For 50% less you would definitely have wasted your time!

A sale requires two things, a willing buyer and a willing seller and that means agreeing a price that is acceptable and fair to both.

50% is obviously an extreme case, probably a combination of the boat being way overpriced and the seller needing a quick sale, plus the buyer taking some advantage of the financial climate we find ourselves in, but nonetheless I have heard of a few cases where boats went for 50% below asking, AND many have reported that in some cases this was 50% below an already very reasonable price.
Obviously there are less people buying boats, which is bound to have an impact on the selling prices for some. But I do see alot of boats on offer that I would consider to be well over a reasonable price. There are loads and loads of examples of boats for sale where the advertised asking price has been reduced by +10% more than once, and still struggle to sell for what they are asking.
Of course some boats will be well priced, and more sellers are not really under pressure to sell the boat.
But going through the various broker sites etc, the amount of boats there that you would assume won't get near the asking price well outnumbers the rest. And there are many cases of very similar boats advertised on the sites having anything from 20 to 40% difference.

Some months back I enquired on a boat and suggested a price I would be willing to view it/discuss it. The seller refused saying he had others viewing it same weekend and price was firm, about 3 weeks later he called me asking when I would view it, told him I lost interest and he suggested a price lower than I had first mentioned!!!
Another 30' beneteau I viewed at same time was a fine boat but really more for a racer so not for me, he was asking for about 50% of similar boats on the sites, which was also his original asking price about a year earlier, so he has a decent boat dropped 50%, an offer of which he would likely have turned down when he first advertised. He still hasn't been able to sell it even though it is a real giveaway price. Just less buyers out there which must affect used boats in the same way used cars and house prices were affected

 

[Lakesailor]

I get what you are saying. I know there are cases in which forumites have got close to the asking price, but there are several imponderables in that.
A really good boat with a fair asking price will sell as long as a reasonable buyer who wants that sort of boat views it.
But overpriced boats, boats in poor condition, undesirable boats, no buyers for a particular boat in an awkward location....you can think of many reasons why there are lots of boats still available.
The fact that some vendors with good boats at reasonable prices in convenient locations have sold easily at or near their price doesn't indicate that the market is buoyant.

 

[rwoofer]

I get what you are saying. I know there are cases in which forumites have got close to the asking price, but there are several imponderables in that.
A really good boat with a fair asking price will sell as long as a reasonable buyer who wants that sort of boat views it.
But overpriced boats, boats in poor condition, undesirable boats, no buyers for a particular boat in an awkward location....you can think of many reasons why there are lots of boats still available.
The fact that some vendors with good boats at reasonable prices in convenient locations have sold easily at or near their price doesn't indicate that the market is buoyant.

I agree with that. My own example was a classic case of having to wait for the right buyer because it is a bit of a niche boat. For the wrong buyer I could have dropped it by 20% and they still probably wouldn't have been willing to make the leap.

I also had at least 3 viewers who acknowledged they needed to sell their boats first and never heard anything more, which suggests they were all struggling to sell.

Probably the best boats to measure the "market" would be your AWBs, JenBenBavs etc...

 

[RabT]

Supply exceeds demand = prices fall

I am fairly new to sailing (CC and DS) and I am struggling to find something that fits my requirements, despite looking at the Clyde marinas from Rhu to Troon, which I think it is a wide enough area.

I am looking at used yachts between 23-29 (ideally 25-27) with a budget of £7-£10k for purchase plus another £3k max for “upgrades”, and the number of neglected boats at inflated prices is huge. What has shocked me the most is the disgraceful state some owners keep their boats in: leaks, cracked windows, rusty masts, mouldy furnishings, it was such an eye-opener –but in the wrong way.

Over the last 2 months I have viewed about 12 sailboats around the £7-£12k mark and very, very few of them (IMHO) justify the asking price. How can something 35 years old which probably will need a new engine within 5 years, re-rigging and new upholstery be priced at £10-12k? (Talking about boats with decent reputations: Sabre 27, Jaguar 27, Sadler 25, Albin Vega 27, etc).

Then there is the lack of information, which is what I find most irritating. Each broker provides a different level of detail, often the minimum. Then if you ask a question (for example engine hours, or age of rigging), they ignore your email. Asking for any paperwork (servicing, repairs, etc) is often met with a blank stare.

If you ask what an acceptable offer would be, the reply tends to be “she is priced to sell”.
Well if she’s been up for sale for over 6 months, she isn’t, is she?

It is this opacity in the price discovery process, partially a result of the lack of detail (or honesty) on the boat’s condition and upkeep, that makes the second hand market a nightmare for first time buyers. I know of people who have been put off of buying and instead they just charter whenever they want to. Similar to the housing market, where people are renting because they cannot get a mortgage and houses are perceived to be over-priced.

Given the technology tools at our disposal (XML), it would be so easy and would make life much simpler for everyone if a body like the RYA or the broker trade associations all agreed in a standard format for sales brochures. (like the factsheets for an investment fund in an ISA). Standardisation allows for massive increases in easy of comparison, which would drive volumes up: this would be a huge benefit to the used boat market.

Not sure about the 50%, or even 30% (as someone suggested to me a few weeks ago) discounts to asking prices , but at least 10% off the asking price is the minimum to get talking, plus whatever material issue comes up during the survey.

I agree with the initial post: there are a huge number of boats out there and like houses or cars, prices have to come down at some point.

Bit off tangent, but given the situation in Ireland, are second hand sailboats much cheaper over there?

 

[zarathustra]

Not sure about the 50%, or even 30% (as someone suggested to me a few weeks ago) discounts to asking prices , but at least 10% off the asking price is the minimum to get talking, plus whatever material issue comes up during the survey.

I agree with the initial post: there are a huge number of boats out there and like houses or cars, prices have to come down at some point.

Bit off tangent, but given the situation in Ireland, are second hand sailboats much cheaper over there?

In the last week I was talking to 2 sailor friends, one in Uk and one in Ireland. The Uk sailor has told me he knows of a few boats selling for LESS than 50% in the last few weeks, one being a nice 40fter that was advertised at a reasonable £40k, went for under £20!!!! Said it needed a clean up but nothing major.
My friend in ireland tells me he expects to be a bigger choice of used boats on the irish market in 2011 and at much lower prices, says he knows some who can't sell decent used boats at any price at the minute.
Advice I am getting is prices are likely to fall further in the used boat market in Ireland due to the bleak economic situation there.

Whether this will be the case or not it seems certain it is worth bargaining and trying offers as there doesn't appear to be a hurry to buy a boat, prices aren't going to rise in used boats for sure.

 

[Tranona]

I am fairly new to sailing (CC and DS) and I am struggling to find something that fits my requirements, despite looking at the Clyde marinas from Rhu to Troon, which I think it is a wide enough area.

I am looking at used yachts between 23-29 (ideally 25-27) with a budget of £7-£10k for purchase plus another £3k max for “upgrades”, and the number of neglected boats at inflated prices is huge. What has shocked me the most is the disgraceful state some owners keep their boats in: leaks, cracked windows, rusty masts, mouldy furnishings, it was such an eye-opener –but in the wrong way.

Over the last 2 months I have viewed about 12 sailboats around the £7-£12k mark and very, very few of them (IMHO) justify the asking price. How can something 35 years old which probably will need a new engine within 5 years, re-rigging and new upholstery be priced at £10-12k? (Talking about boats with decent reputations: Sabre 27, Jaguar 27, Sadler 25, Albin Vega 27, etc).

Then there is the lack of information, which is what I find most irritating. Each broker provides a different level of detail, often the minimum. Then if you ask a question (for example engine hours, or age of rigging), they ignore your email. Asking for any paperwork (servicing, repairs, etc) is often met with a blank stare.

If you ask what an acceptable offer would be, the reply tends to be “she is priced to sell”.
Well if she’s been up for sale for over 6 months, she isn’t, is she?

It is this opacity in the price discovery process, partially a result of the lack of detail (or honesty) on the boat’s condition and upkeep, that makes the second hand market a nightmare for first time buyers. I know of people who have been put off of buying and instead they just charter whenever they want to. Similar to the housing market, where people are renting because they cannot get a mortgage and houses are perceived to be over-priced.

Given the technology tools at our disposal (XML), it would be so easy and would make life much simpler for everyone if a body like the RYA or the broker trade associations all agreed in a standard format for sales brochures. (like the factsheets for an investment fund in an ISA). Standardisation allows for massive increases in easy of comparison, which would drive volumes up: this would be a huge benefit to the used boat market.

Not sure about the 50%, or even 30% (as someone suggested to me a few weeks ago) discounts to asking prices , but at least 10% off the asking price is the minimum to get talking, plus whatever material issue comes up during the survey.

I agree with the initial post: there are a huge number of boats out there and like houses or cars, prices have to come down at some point.

Bit off tangent, but given the situation in Ireland, are second hand sailboats much cheaper over there?

Don't think supply does exceed demand. There are always boats on the market - but a tiny fraction - less than 5% of boats in existence at an educated guess. There were 2500 Westerly Centaurs made, but you would be lucky to have a choice of 30 for sale at any one time.

In the price bracket you are looking at boats sell for less than 20% of what a new one would cost - they are old had a hard life and often suffered neglect, but owners currently would rather keep them than sell at low prices. This of course is not always true as some people have to sell. However, cheap boats like this are not always good buys - better to wait and buy at the top end of the price range to get a good example.

Although its nice to think that the "market" could be organised better, the reality is that it will always be messy. Most people only sell a boat once or twice so they have no incentive to do anything about improving their presentation and there is no money in it for brokers.

 

[nimbusgb]

I am fairly new to sailing (CC and DS) and I am struggling to find something that fits my requirements, despite looking at the Clyde marinas from Rhu to Troon, which I think it is a wide enough area.

I am looking at used yachts between 23-29 (ideally 25-27) with a budget of £7-£10k for purchase plus another £3k max for “upgrades”, and the number of neglected boats at inflated prices is huge. What has shocked me the most is the disgraceful state some owners keep their boats in: leaks, cracked windows, rusty masts, mouldy furnishings, it was such an eye-opener –but in the wrong way.

Over the last 2 months I have viewed about 12 sailboats around the £7-£12k mark and very, very few of them (IMHO) justify the asking price. How can something 35 years old which probably will need a new engine within 5 years, re-rigging and new upholstery be priced at £10-12k? (Talking about boats with decent reputations: Sabre 27, Jaguar 27, Sadler 25, Albin Vega 27, etc).

Then there is the lack of information, which is what I find most irritating. Each broker provides a different level of detail, often the minimum. Then if you ask a question (for example engine hours, or age of rigging), they ignore your email. Asking for any paperwork (servicing, repairs, etc) is often met with a blank stare.

If you ask what an acceptable offer would be, the reply tends to be “she is priced to sell”.
Well if she’s been up for sale for over 6 months, she isn’t, is she?

It is this opacity in the price discovery process, partially a result of the lack of detail (or honesty) on the boat’s condition and upkeep, that makes the second hand market a nightmare for first time buyers. I know of people who have been put off of buying and instead they just charter whenever they want to. Similar to the housing market, where people are renting because they cannot get a mortgage and houses are perceived to be over-priced.

Given the technology tools at our disposal (XML), it would be so easy and would make life much simpler for everyone if a body like the RYA or the broker trade associations all agreed in a standard format for sales brochures. (like the factsheets for an investment fund in an ISA). Standardisation allows for massive increases in easy of comparison, which would drive volumes up: this would be a huge benefit to the used boat market.

Not sure about the 50%, or even 30% (as someone suggested to me a few weeks ago) discounts to asking prices , but at least 10% off the asking price is the minimum to get talking, plus whatever material issue comes up during the survey.

I agree with the initial post: there are a huge number of boats out there and like houses or cars, prices have to come down at some point.

Bit off tangent, but given the situation in Ireland, are second hand sailboats much cheaper over there?

OMG! Any chance you work in HR? Sure 80% of the dross would fit in to your 'standard' XML format. The 20% actually worth dealing with, the 'interesting' boats, ones with history or special features would get culled out of your search facility.