the huge surplus of used boats
- Thread starter zarathustra
- Start date
penfold
Well-Known Member
prv
Well-Known Member
Not the old wrecks at the back of my yard, they can't. A couple have notices on announcing thousands of pounds worth of unpaid fees, when the rotting hulk is probably worth £200 max. Were it not that the Port Authority would complain, the yard's best bet would probably be to use the forklift to shove the things over the edge into the river and use the space to store a few more paying boats.
Pete
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Eh? One of these? I can't imagine how you'd struggle to give one of those away.
If thats a Cutlass - yes one of those. First owner died and the club managed to persuade another member to take on the boat from the widow F.O.C. after they had tried for months to sell it cheap. When that member decided to go back to SA, he couldnt even give it away
Sure the boat was a project still requiring some tlc, but nothing that the average boat owner couldnt do in a day or two.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
The Halifax house prices survey always seems (or perhaps seemed - is it gone now?) to predict that house prices were just about to soar upwards. One boat I looked at when hunting for Jumblie had a keen cash buyer, just about to survey. Odd that the boat took another nine months to disappear from the broker's list - I hope it found someone who could afford to replace the leaking teak deck ...
penfold
Well-Known Member
Astonishing; was this before the days of ebay? If not then there isn't much excuse. You might have to auction it a halfdozen times before you get a serious buyer from the bull****ters, but Ebay is no effort at all once you've taken pictures and written the spiel. Even a basketcase cutlass should be attracting in the region of a grand.
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
Absolutely true. I have been forced to widen my search to boats I would not normally consider just so I can keep up my momentum. Waste of time though because I usually back off at the last minute wasting both my time and the sellers.
The cause of the problem is that the internet is free to advertise a boat, and with no time limit, so owners put their boats up for sale for a high asking price and it costs them nothing. Other owners of similar boats see the advertisement and say "Wow, look at that, I will advertise mine for that price, who knows, some fool may buy it". Soon there will be three boats, then four, then five, of that type and all for the same ridiculous asking price.
I have just finished with one "seller" whose response to my reasonable offer was "I don't need to sell her so I'm not going to give her away". There lies the crunch. They don't need or intend to sell so they inflate the market with scruffy, badly prepared boats for a high asking price".
Ten years ago (or so), the only way to reach the buyers was an advertisement in the classifieds of a good newspaper that cost £75 for a three day exposure. A seller could not afford to advertise unless he wanted to sell. And he had just three days to do it in.
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Blue5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps boating is just following the example set by estate agents.
Following the example of many of the house buying programmes on TV where it seems to be the norm to go in with an offer £30k under the asking price a lot of agents were overpricing by the same amount so the vendor was happy to accept an offer and still get the price they want, not sure it is prevelant at the moment but a lot of peeps will now not pay the asking price whatever it is on principle, they have to be seen to get a deal!!
ProDave
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread. Here's my findings.
We got interested in boating several years ago, and did once look at buying our own boat, but even though we only wanted a small and probably old sailing boat, prices were high when we last looked 4 or 5 years ago, and we couldn't find anything for our modest budget (under 2K all in for boat, trailer, motor etc)
But quite by chance our interest was re awakened late this summer, and on re looking at the market, found small old boats were now in our budget. However, still not many to choose from unless we were prepared to travel a long way. Plenty to choose from on the South coast.
But we did find one, and bought her and so far are pleased with our little boat.
I would also like to add that this "recession" has also been responsible for us replacing both of our cars for much newer models, again at a fraction of the prices you would have to have paid 4 or 5 years ago.
So a recession does have some uses.
We got interested in boating several years ago, and did once look at buying our own boat, but even though we only wanted a small and probably old sailing boat, prices were high when we last looked 4 or 5 years ago, and we couldn't find anything for our modest budget (under 2K all in for boat, trailer, motor etc)
But quite by chance our interest was re awakened late this summer, and on re looking at the market, found small old boats were now in our budget. However, still not many to choose from unless we were prepared to travel a long way. Plenty to choose from on the South coast.
But we did find one, and bought her and so far are pleased with our little boat.
I would also like to add that this "recession" has also been responsible for us replacing both of our cars for much newer models, again at a fraction of the prices you would have to have paid 4 or 5 years ago.
So a recession does have some uses.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Definitely something to be said for that ie. bit of a qualification process from the buyers side. Apolloduck, B & O just make it too easier to slap a boat up there, so that is what people do. Along with all the other practices already mentioned (eg. sold boats staying listed), it becomes an enormous challenge to find those genuine sellers.
The only exception would be those people who have spent nothing, but put a load of effort into creating a website. I've been a recent seller and I reckon it took me about 30 hours of effort to take all the pictures, edit them, detail the full spec and build the website. Anyone who goes through that kind of effort definitely wants to sell, is going to be realistic about offer prices and is therefore contributing to the real market.
zarathustra
Well-Known Member
yes, I can understand why that could be a cause. Do many of the buyers go along with it though, that decides the difference between asking price and selling price. Some on this forum have suggested that selling price for many used boats is now 50%!!! This seems a huge drop, but looking at so many of the boats on the sites, there are simply thousands of them to choose from, you would wonder how they can all get sold, so the prices do have to drop. Previously I would be embarrassed offering 50% below asking price, but now I see the amount of used boats, and so few of them appear to be real value for money I have to assume the only way they will ever sell is a substantial price drop.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
My boat sold for very close to asking, and anyone offering 50% would have been politely requested to cease and desist wasting my telephonic electrons.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think you are missing the main popint about markets for second hand goods that are not essentials. It is, as many have pointed out virtually costless to place a boat on the market. Unlike new goods where manufacturers can cut prices to get rid of stock and adjust production to meet demand, so reducing supply, the supply of used boats is increasing all the time.
However, the proportion that are on the market at any one time is a tiny fraction of those that could be. Just as an example, Bavaria have made over 30000 boats. There are less than 1000 listed on Yachtworld.com (some of which will be multiple listed) So, 97% are not for sale. I know it is not the total market, but even if there are twice as many it is still only a tiny %age. And remember that unlike a producer of new products a boat owner does not have to sell to survive. Many are selling because they want to buy another boat, and if they can't get the price they want would rather keep the current boat.
Do not get misled by stories of 50% reductions - this is not the norm. Not saying that boats don't sell for low prices, but invariably there is a sound reason, usually to do with a major shortcoming in the boat that the owner is unaware of or refused to accept until the survey pointed it out. Just as an example a replacement teak deck can be 20% of the asking price of a typical 20 year old 35 footer. There are of course always people who are forced to sell - financial pressures, change in personal circumstances, ill health, dying etc and this is where price dropping might be more common. At the same time, however, these can be boats that need work and are probably over-priced by the owners.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Yes I would have reacted similarly too silly offers. In the end my went for 3% below asking, so the right priced boats are definitely selling for close to asking.
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
It is an expensive and time consuming business to fly out to view a prospective purchase. Train, taxi, airfares and often a hotel for a night or two. Then the long disappointed expensive trek back home.
It takes me two full days and a night in an airport to get from mid-Sweden to (for instance) Greece or Turkey outside the charter flight season. Only to find that the seller is just trying it on.
I have come to the conclusion that the only way to avoid a wasted journey is to test the seller with at least a 10% lower offer by phone or email. An offer of 3% less is useless to sort the genuine from the hundreds of "try-it-on" sellers. There is a term called "Tyre Kicker" to describe a bored buyer looking for someone to talk to. There should be one for the nasty "non-seller".
Or use a reputable broker. At least with a broker a buyer MAY get a cup of tea after a two day journey.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Why would you take a 2 day trip and flights to see a boat unless you were prepared to pay the asking price or close to it? I would imagine you could easily waste a lot of time and money if you made the assumption that an offer of up to 50% less would be acceptable, it might in a very few cases but not enough to assume as normal.
Our boat sold last December in weeks (in the UK) for very close to the asking price. For 50% less you would definitely have wasted your time!
A sale requires two things, a willing buyer and a willing seller and that means agreeing a price that is acceptable and fair to both.
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
I wrote that I actually test the seller with 10% not 50%. In an ideal world the boat would be as described, so the asking price would reflect the yachts true value. It is NOT an ideal world. Many times even the model number and year of manufacture is wrong. So I travel to a boat with an open mind.
Photographs are not good indications because they are sometimes years old and reflect the condition of the boat as she was (say) ten years ago. Sometimes they were taken last week but how the hell do I know that?
Most of the photographs are useless anyway because a picture of a silent engine tells you nothing. The mainsail is usually covered by canvas and the Genoa is rolled up. The majority of the photographs are interior shots which would be valuable if I was buying a caravan. It is quite rare to see a photograph of the keel or rudder.
I want a genuine seller before I travel for two days. I use the description and photographs as a guide only. If the owner shows no flexibility on his price but is stubborn on his asking price then I don't bother. The risk is too high for yet another wasted journey.
Also don't forget that a buyer that travels for two quite expensive days wants with all his heart for the boat to just get close to his requirements. He has a psychological desire to ignore prudence and take a chance which is something that must be guarded against.
Believe me, facing that empty-handed two day journey back is the worse part of the excercise and influences future negotiations so further trips out to view other boats are studied with increasing focus.
alan_d
Well-Known Member
I am not sure that a photo of a noisy engine would be much more informative.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
I would have to say that if you had made an offer 10% below asking without even seeing the boat, I would have ignored it. I would just think that you were trying your luck.
I don't really have any advice on how to avoid time wasters, but have the feeling that you might be missing out on good boats with your current strategy. I also think that most people who go to the effort of taking a lot of photos and putting a comprehensive spec together are less likely to be trying to mis-represent the boat.
I don't really have any advice on how to avoid time wasters, but have the feeling that you might be missing out on good boats with your current strategy. I also think that most people who go to the effort of taking a lot of photos and putting a comprehensive spec together are less likely to be trying to mis-represent the boat.
andymcp
Well-Known Member
There isn't really a hard and fast way of doing so, and some of it depends on the type of person you are speaking to - if it's a first time buyer they may well be full of great intent that falls flat on the realities of buying a boat (or complications they didn't forsee). If it's a seasoned owner then talking to them about their position and their readiness to buy (have they sold, are they dependent on finance approval, do they have a known location to berth - and costs for getting it there) should give you a steer.
When we bought we were very much in the first camp, and said that no matter how committed we were to buying, we would not be a quick sale - first time finding out about insurance, first time getting quotes for remedial work we wanted done (or finding out how to do it ourselves), first time understanding surveys and so on. All that was out in the open before we even discussed price, so that if we were time-wasters then the seller or broker could kindly tell us to move along.
Now that we're selling I find the lack of basic qualification being done is quite frustrating. Or maybe it's the lack of communication by the broker - either way, there is a bit of a void out there. I understand people's reluctance to spell out exactly where they are at so they can decide on their strategy for offering etc without prejudice later if they need to, but I'd far rather that a prospective buyer said "We're just looking at what might be right" rather than appear, take a look, radio silence.
But time wasters are a feature of selling anything really, be it car, house, boat, ebay item, whatever. I just tune those out that don't provide any basic level of information. I do get it wrong of course - last house sale it was the utterly silent viewers who put by far and away the highest offer in.....
