the huge surplus of used boats

[zarathustra]

Going through the numerous used boat websites, that cover Europe and USA there does appear to be an enormous amount of boats for sale, and the prices do seem ambitious for something 30-40 years old. Obviously boats don't depreciate at the rate that cars do, for whatever reasons, but I do have to wonder will even 10% of those boats ever get sold. Some of them you would wonder if they even halved the asking price they would still struggle to sell.
What happens to all those used boats that don't sell? Are most of them still being sailed while for sale? If boatyards have unsold ageing boats, what do they do with them when they can't sell them, assuming they need the space in their yard for other purposes.
In many cases a modern similar sized boat with brighter more pleasant interiour, but with less prestigous brand name will cost not much more than the used boats of the 70's.
Will all those boats get sold eventually, many of them seem to be on the sites for months on end, particularly if you look at the Scandinavian boats, their used prices seem very ambitious.

 

[SimbaDog]

Well, I know three brokers who are reporting great sales volumes & they say they can't get enough clean yachts to sell
All the decent yachts that I have seen come on the market recently have been snapped up.

 

[Lakesailor]

Two stories with different perspectives.
I too feel that not many boats are shifting. The brokers would be upbeat.
It also tends to beg the question of, like estate agents, if there has been a hiatus in sales, is a few unblocking the log jamb a bit of a false dawn?
I also agree with the OP that many older boats are vastly over-valued.
I know of a Jaguar 22, which is very smart, but lacking a few desirables (trailer, outboard, roller furling) which the broker has on at probably 50% more than is realistic.
The owner knows that and is becoming prepared to take less, but the brokers are after their %, aren't they?

 

[Cliveshep]

Two stories with different perspectives.
I too feel that not many boats are shifting. The brokers would be upbeat.
It also tends to beg the question of, like estate agents, if there has been a hiatus in sales, is a few unblocking the log jamb a bit of a false dawn?
I also agree with the OP that many older boats are vastly over-valued.
I know of a Jaguar 22, which is very smart, but lacking a few desirables (trailer, outboard, roller furling) which the broker has on at probably 50% more than is realistic.
The owner knows that and is becoming prepared to take less, but the brokers are after their %, aren't they?

Hi Lakey - long time no speak (I'm working again!)

Could it be that, like my Ocean, the ad is still running long after it was actually sold, B & A and Apolllo not taking the ad down as requested. Months after sale I STILL get requests to view!

As an aside cum Fred Drift - I've still got two 4-berth motor cruisers sitting in my back garden which are going to stay there until the Spring. One is pretty much ready to go and is covered up on a stillage, blocked in by the 2nd which is hogging the trailer and no room or facility to swap them around - I've got only one lifting Gantry and one trailer and no more room! The only way I could swap them would be to launch both, recover the one with most work yet to do and crane that off onto the stillage then go back and get the other onto the trailer - a procedure that will involve loads of work and driving over probably a 2 or 3 day period as the nearest launch site is 30 miles away and moving a cruiser onto a stillage is no easy task.

 

[Lakesailor]

Hi there Clive.
The Jaguar I speak of is still actively for sale.

I know what you mean about ghost ads though. Boats and Outboards are dire at removing the ads. Very difficult to find contact details as well. I ended up reporting my own ad using the complaints procedure. That was a ad for a boat trailer which I could have sold 10 times over judging by all the calls long after it had gone.

(Could you borrow another trailer, move the existing one onto the road, put the stored boat onto the borrowed trailer etc. etc.)

 

[photodog]

I too feel that not many boats are shifting. The brokers would be upbeat.

That was a ad for a boat trailer which I could have sold 10 times over judging by all the calls long after it had gone.

Is this one of those times when a forumite contradicts himself?

 

[Little Five]

Going through the numerous used boat websites, that cover Europe and USA there does appear to be an enormous amount of boats for sale, and the prices do seem ambitious for something 30-40 years old. Obviously boats don't depreciate at the rate that cars do, for whatever reasons, but I do have to wonder will even 10% of those boats ever get sold. Some of them you would wonder if they even halved the asking price they would still struggle to sell.
What happens to all those used boats that don't sell? Are most of them still being sailed while for sale? If boatyards have unsold ageing boats, what do they do with them when they can't sell them, assuming they need the space in their yard for other purposes.
In many cases a modern similar sized boat with brighter more pleasant interiour, but with less prestigous brand name will cost not much more than the used boats of the 70's.
Will all those boats get sold eventually, many of them seem to be on the sites for months on end, particularly if you look at the Scandinavian boats, their used prices seem very ambitious.

Lots of boats are advertised on multiple sites so its hard to work out the actual number for sale. Prices have dropped esp for older boats like mine

 

[longjohnsilver]

Hi there Clive.
The Jaguar I speak of is still actively for sale.

I know what you mean about ghost ads though. Boats and Outboards are dire at removing the ads. Very difficult to find contact details as well. I ended up reporting my own ad using the complaints procedure. That was a ad for a boat trailer which I could have sold 10 times over judging by all the calls long after it had gone.

QUOTE]

Had similar problems, suspect that B&O don't want to remove ads as they earn money from every phone call on their premium rate numbers.

 

[nimrod1230]

We completed purchase of our new/secondhand boat at the beginning of September but it is still featured on the brokers site in the December magazine issue just delivered so who knows haw many more are advertised but not available? Maybe better for the broker to have a full page of boats for sale and field enquiries as they arrive with possible alternatives than fewer on offer or marked sold. We certainly finished up buying a slightly different boat to the one we made the first approach about but are confident that our original plan was not what we wanted or needed.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I met the guy who runs the Network yacht brokerage in our marina last weekend, he used to have his boat in the berth next to us, I asked him how business was, and he told me it was grim, no one is listing at the moment he said, and so many decent boats were sold into Europe 18 months to two years ago.

The OP may well be right, just a lot of overpriced tat on the market (with exceptions of course)

 

[oldharry]

The OP may well be right, just a lot of overpriced tat on the market (with exceptions of course)

Isnt that the answer to the two perspectives: good boats are selling well, and the market remains brisk. What is left is the overpriced tat that might have sold when money was easy to come by, but not now when buyers are looking for value.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Well, I know three brokers who are reporting great sales volumes & they say they can't get enough clean yachts to sell

That's what estate agents say when times are tough as well. Hurry, hurry, prices are just about to go up. Had a bloke looked at this yesterday. Seemed very keen. Cash buyer.

 

[zarathustra]

What is left is the overpriced tat that might have sold when money was easy to come by, but not now when buyers are looking for value.

What is surprising is that the over-priced boats (I won't go so far as to say tat but would certainly benefit from renovating) in 30 to 40-year-old condition appear to have very surprising valuations and this makes up the lions share of boats from the 70's as far as I can see. No wonder the better boats sell faster, but isn't that the way in every industry. Many of the used brands seem over-priced and some seem reasonable, Contessa's for example do seem to be asking for a fair bit more than similar priced/style/aged boats.

And for someone like me who isn't sentimental about old boat designs that are now frankly out of date, and who cares as much for Mr Sparkmans and Mr Stephens as they care about me, I would wonder what the owners of many of the Swans from the 70's are thinking when they place those adverts, they appear to be comparing them with the price of a brand new swan and deducting a little! To look at the interior pics of many of those Swans you would not be impressed, so it is only the S&S tag prompting the crazy valuations presumably, and to smarten up a boat is costly. You will find many examples of used Swans (just taking Swans as an example) with an asking price of near double other very similar condition/age Swans. You will find similar examples with most of the well-known boat makes of the 70's and 80's, and not just the scandinavian models. How can those asking for near double the price of similar examples get the pricing so different, are they expecting to bargain so much, or do they really want to sell it at all.

And I am interested to know what happens those boats that don't sell, do they just rot, do the owners keep sailing them, or do they continually reduce the price or auction them off, til they are sold? Or will they eventually get sold at the asking price?

 

[Sans Bateau]

That's what estate agents say when times are tough as well. Hurry, hurry, prices are just about to go up. Had a bloke looked at this yesterday. Seemed very keen. Cash buyer.

You are right that is what estate agents, in fact anyone says, trying to talk the market up. But the fact is there is an absence of good used boats. The area in our marina where the boats are stored ashore 'For Sale' is empty.

 

[OGITD]

There are a few factors effecting this… some already mentioned:
The Brokers wanting their percentage.
The owner, or family not knowing the market and placing a higher value.
Paperwork for proof of maintenance and monies spent.
The speed at which an unattended boat can start to look neglected and shabby.
Plus the cost of storage while on the “For Sale Books” which has to be offset against the value.

We must of all seen shabby neglected boats in any large yard / marina where the boat has been transferred from owners to marina due to extended storage costs.
It’s got to be a nice little earner for the yard, who can restore with relative ease & sell at full market rate if they so desire.

 

[Tranona]

Don't think you can generalise about the "market" other than it is flat at the moment. Sept 2001 YM had 20 pages of brokerage and 8 pages of closely spaced small ads. October 2010 had 8 pages brokerage and 4 pages small ads - but mostly photos rather than lineage. I know advertising habits have changed a bit, but there are many fewer boats on the market now.

From observation there has not been much change in the proportion that stick. some boats are always slow sellers, some are always not seriously for sale. There always is a seemingly large number of boats on the market simply because of the range needed to keep the market active. However as many frustrated buyers will testify, once you focus on your short list the number available shrinks rapidly.

Older boat prices have held up remarkably - if you compared prices of popular 1970's and 80's boats in the two mags quoted above you would find very little difference. Lots of reasons for this, many of which are regularly discussed here. Equally most of the premium brands hold their price well, perhaps because the new price has rocketed in the last 3-4 years.

The other major factor in the larger and newer end of the market is the collapse in sales of new boats which leads to a shortage of used boats as people trade up. Some of the major brands which used to sell new boats in the hundereds each year have seen they sales fall by 70% or more - and most new sales generate a second hand boat.

 

[Sybarite]

In France you can be prosecuted for false publicity. This was applied often when recruiting firms didn't remove jobs which had been filled thus giving a false impression of their level of activity. Does the same apply in the UK?

 

[oldfatgit]

It’s got to be a nice little earner for the yard, who can restore with relative ease & sell at full market rate if they so desire.

I quite agree, somebody comes to a broker to sell his boat, the broker bigs up the value so the seller thinks that he can afford to pay storage charges for a long time on the basis that when it sells they will have a nice profit, even after brokers commission etc. Then the boat is left in storage and the broker does nothing to maintain the appearance and condition of the boat, which is soon enough growing green stuff, mould and bad smells. Unsurprisingly it does not sell and the broker either takes possession when the seller cannot afford or does not want to pay storage charges. They then smarten it up, drop the price and sell it. When I sold our previous boat I made sure there were no excuses for the broker. The boat was pristine, the documents were all provided in folders with a contents list. I also visited at regular intervals to clean her and just ask questions about prospective customers. I also made suggestions about the advert on the website and wrote the sales brochure. In truth, I also think I had a decent broker, but by remaining involved I knew that they new that there was no scope for creative idleness. I emphasise, however, that they may have treated me as they do all customers, I have no evidence that they are slack with anybody and, indeed I will use them again.

 

[CoVianna]

Fraud?

Had similar problems, suspect that B&O don't want to remove ads as they earn money from every phone call on their premium rate numbers.

I'm sure, that if this is true, then it is a simple case of fraud. I'm thinking of the TV premium rate telephone scandal when the lines were closed but people were still ringing to vote and been charged etc. A quick call to the police would surely sort that.

Originally Posted by Ubergeekian
That's what estate agents say when times are tough as well. Hurry, hurry, prices are just about to go up. Had a bloke looked at this yesterday. Seemed very keen. Cash buyer.

Ahh! That old chestnut! Doubt if any estate agent still uses that line. If they do they are sailing very close to the wind (Oh dear - pun not intended! Well not much anyway!). Too much regulation about these days. Estate Agency Act 1979. Property Misdescriptions Act etc. And an OFT very ready to prosecute for very minor transgrassions. The Trade Press used to be full of reports of prosecutions. Not as many now. Mind you the Ombudsman (OEA) takes action so less get to court.

Originally Posted by Old Glows in the Deep
The Brokers wanting their percentage.
The owner, or family not knowing the market and placing a higher value.

Any Broker like an Estate Agent would rather have a percentage of something rather than a percentage of nothing.
Thats what the broker is for. To advise on price. Any broker accepting the clients price, if he knows it to be too high, is not acting in his clients best interest. He/She is the one with the experience.

Originally Posted by oldfatgit
Then the boat is left in storage and the broker does nothing to maintain the appearance and condition of the boat.

I'm sorry but it is not upto the broker to maintain the boat! That is the owners responsibility! The broker should advise and recommend just like an estate agent does. Do you expect your estate agent to come round and clean or redecorate your house????

 

[Bosun Higgs]

And I am interested to know what happens those boats that don't sell, do they just rot, do the owners keep sailing them, or do they continually reduce the price or auction them off, til they are sold? Or will they eventually get sold at the asking price?

The reality is that there are lots of small old boats ( its not just age that is the problem - the minimum acceptable boats size has gone up too) where the owner thinks they are an asset but the reality is they are a liability, with no significant capital value but rising annual costs for berthing etc.

One club of which I am a member is well endowed with storage space which comes ofc with a £200 pa membership. Of late they have been busy with new member applications and most are from the owners of things like Westerly 22s which cant be sold at the prices the owners think, and are simply not worth keeping in marinas.

Couple of years ago we had a member chop up a Cutlass and takle the bits down to the dumpit. He found he couldnt even give it away.