??The Honesty Thread?? Dual Residency, Tax Treaties, Driving Licenses, Boat Taxes, Health Cover & Other Implications Of Life In 2021 & Beyond

[nortada]

In a previous thread it was agreed it could be useful to know what is what in the different EU counties.

Some permit dual residency, some don't.
Some have Tax treaties that prevent double taxation, some don't.
Driving licenses can be a nightmare as can boat taxes (matriculation?)
Health cover, another minefield.
And there must be more I haven't even thought of.

The aim of this thread is for those in country and in the know to enlighten the rest of use so we can best navigate up the run-up 31/12/2020 and beyond.

The more we know the more we can make the system work for us.

 

[nortada]

OK I’ll have first bash. Please correct or add as you see fit.

PORTUGAL.

Dual UK/Portuguese residency permitted. But having been granted temporary residency Brits have to spend at least 6 months of every year in Portugal to retain their residency. After 5 years they may be awarded permanent (10 year) residency, then the time in country requirement no longer applies.

Tax treaty prevents double taxation but any income earned in Portugal will be taxed in Portugal.

Portuguese residents are required to hold a Portuguese driving license.

Boat taxation. Today residents do not have to matriculate their boat but may be required to pay circulation tax if their boat is in Portuguese Waters for than 183 days contiguous in a fiscal year (1 Jan - 31 Dec). All boats in Portuguese Waters are required to pay light dues -rates can vary according to circumstance.

Health Cover. All Portuguese residents can register for free healthcare in Portugal and for a Portuguese EHIC, for use when visiting other EU countries. Brit residents in receipt of a UK state pension can register for the S1 scheme, which means, in addition to free health care when in Portugal, they will continue to enjoy full cover by the NHS, when in the UK.

Over to you?

 

[cherod]

Crystal ball gazing

 

[Cariadco]

For loads and loads of info for Greece, the 'British in Greece' Facebook page is teeming with useful info.....
Here's the link:
Facebook Groups

 

[nortada]

Crystal ball gazing

Not at all, this is as is, to day.

Most, if not all, will survive beyond 31/12.

Thank you for your support

 

[nortada]

For loads and loads of info for Greece, the 'British in Greece' Facebook page is teeming with useful info.....
Here's the link:
Facebook Groups

Thanks but as this is private, would it be possible to precis the bare bones, possibly under the headings suggested, on here?

 

[cherod]

Not at all this is as is to day.

Most, if not all will survive beyond 31/12.

Thank you for your support

Maybe , maybe not ?

 

[nortada]

Maybe , maybe not ?

Actually, rather than an argument, I am looking for information.

 

[cherod]

Sure and good luck , i am not looking for an argument , just with so much uncertainty i really not sure what sort of definative information is available , i too will be interested in what comes up .

 

[nortada]

Sure and good luck , i am not looking for an argument , just with so much uncertainty i really not sure what sort of definative information is available , i too will be interested in what comes up .

Fair point but the information I have provided is the status quo for residents in a country that is not fixated on Brexit.

 

[cherod]

Fair point but the information I have provided is the status quo for residents in a country that is not fixated on Brexit.

you mean a country like scotland ,,

 

[Besonders]

Nortada,
I appreciate the intention of your OP, There will always be those that " know better" or have a hidden agenda , or who just want to get their thread contribution count up and want the last word, From this thread there may be just one gem that assists others and that is the whole purpose of this forum.
In answer to the OP, i believe the situation is pretty similar in Greece regarding taxation, driving licence and residency,
One area that i think most people have overlooked,with regard to the general situation is that post Brexit, all those with temporary residence of any any EU country, will be required at some stage (Country dependant) to obtain permanent residencey., With that comes a whole raft of changes, regarding tax, pensions, healthcare and other related issues. For instance, if one becomes a Greek resident subject to Greek tax,then any luxury item you own such as a yacht, (Regardless of country registration) is potentially subject to an onerous luxury tax, as i understand ; (age and value dependent) up to 40% of its value in tax per annum, (which is why you never see many private registered greek yachts, other than charter boats)
There are many issues of which we are uncertain but regardless failling to plan is planning to fail

 

[sarabande]

Crystal ball gazing

There will always be some useful information from this thread for someone somewhere.

Do try and be helpful, rather than the contributor of negative posts. The practical forums live by sharing useful information. Use the lounge if you wish to be sardonic.

 

[nortada]

One area that i think most people have overlooked,with regard to the general situation is that post Brexit, all those with temporary residence of any any EU country, will be required at some stage (Country dependant) to obtain permanent residencey., With that comes a whole raft of changes, regarding tax, pensions, healthcare and other related issues. For instance, if one becomes a Greek resident subject to Greek tax,then any luxury item you own such as a yacht, (Regardless of country registration) is potentially subject to an onerous luxury tax, as i understand ; (age and value dependent) up to 40% of its value in tax per annum, (which is why you never see many private registered greek yachts, other than charter boats)
There are many issues of which we are uncertain but regardless failling to plan is planning to fail

Thank you for your support.

The points you raise when converting from temporary to permanent residency are very valid.

Here in Portugal we have many who, having done their 5 years probationary period, have converted to permanent 10 year residency. At this point the have to convince SEF (immigration) they are bonafide Portuguese residence, able to support themselves financially so as not to become a drain on the state but once they get permanent status, nothing much else appears to change.

You may be aware that to reflect their change of status post Brexit, all Brits resident in Portugal are being issued with a biometric residency permit so they can be tracked by the Schengen Database. At this point it is possible that SEF will confirm individuals right to continue to have temporary residency.

In the final analysis, if it all turns to worms, Brit residents will be able to cancel their residency and sail way out of EU waters

 

[jordanbasset]

In Spain you need to spend at least 183 days in the country to get residency, so if other countries make the same stipulation then dual residency in another EU country would be mathematically difficult if not impossible.
Do not think it would be much of an issue to retain or at least re-establish UK residency for UK citizens

 

[Tony Cross]

Nortada,
I appreciate the intention of your OP, There will always be those that " know better" or have a hidden agenda , or who just want to get their thread contribution count up and want the last word, From this thread there may be just one gem that assists others and that is the whole purpose of this forum.
In answer to the OP, i believe the situation is pretty similar in Greece regarding taxation, driving licence and residency,
One area that i think most people have overlooked,with regard to the general situation is that post Brexit, all those with temporary residence of any any EU country, will be required at some stage (Country dependant) to obtain permanent residencey., With that comes a whole raft of changes, regarding tax, pensions, healthcare and other related issues. For instance, if one becomes a Greek resident subject to Greek tax,then any luxury item you own such as a yacht, (Regardless of country registration) is potentially subject to an onerous luxury tax, as i understand ; (age and value dependent) up to 40% of its value in tax per annum, (which is why you never see many private registered greek yachts, other than charter boats)
There are many issues of which we are uncertain but regardless failling to plan is planning to fail

In Greece the existing EU registration and permanent EU registration documents are being exchanged for 5 and 10 year residence permits from Jan 1st. As far as tax is concerned you need to get a tax number (they call it a VAT number - ΑΦΜ) in order to do most things, including rent an apartment, buy a car or scooter, and a great more besides. Once you have a tax number you are legally required to submit yearly tax returns, most people pay an accountant to do this for them. Greece has a dual taxation agreement with the UK so it's quite common to be filling in zero to pay tax returns if you are tax resident in the UK. If you are resident in Greece for more than 183 days in any tax year (Greek tax years run form January to December) you are automatically a tax resident and you must then have a tax number and make yearly returns. In this case you're liable for Greek tax (on your worldwide income) for that tax year and it will be up to you to talk to HMRC about recovering any tax paid in the UK for that year under the dual taxation agreement.

I'm not even certain the yacht luxury tax still exists, the cruising tax that was recently introduced was intended as a replacement - because it was easy to avoid the luxury tax. In any case, as with the tax on cars here, it varies depending on the age of the boat. Those cruising round in boats 10 years or more old were paying tiny amounts in luxury tax - but as mentioned I'm not even sure it's still collected.

If you are planning to obtain Greek residence I strongly advise talking to a good Greek accountant. Ask the Greek friends you make to recommend one to you, they can easily save you their small fee in tax.

 

[syvictoria]

Hopefully this thread will become a good repository of information relating to residency, as is it's intention. However, the average long term cruiser will not, I imagine, wish to take up residency, temporary or permanent, for a stay that is intended to be 6 months, a year, maybe 18 months? The requirements from 1/1/21 will I fear be far to onerous for such a short stay. There are already plenty of ex-pat forums out there that address the various problems and peculiarities of specific country's residency requirements. This is a sailing forum for long term cruisers/liveaboards. I fear that the information gathered here will sadly be of little practical use for those of us who are at present (and will be come 1/1/21) officially only 'resident' in the UK (or perhaps no where!) - and we are the ones that are still struggling with how to move forward (quite literally!) next year. Those that wish to 'relocate' will, as Nortada keeps pointing out, most likely already have made their choices and arrangements. The rest of us maybe need to look to the American forums for answers, assuming that it does become a no deal Brexit?

 

[nortada]

Those that wish to 'relocate' will, as Nortada keeps pointing out, most likely already have made their choices and arrangements.

Only wish this were the case but from personal experience there are still many, not-in-the-know.

My continued 'banging on' is generating a steady flow to the Camara. Followed by' "Thanks Mate, for saving me from myself" or words to that effect.

Think this justifies the 'banging on'. If I really irritate just put me on Ignore - I'll live.

 

[Sailfree]

The points you raise when converting from temporary to permanent residency are very valid.

Here in Portugal we have many who, having done their 5 years probationary period, have converted to permanent 10 year residency. At this point the have to convince SEF (immigration) they are bonafide Portuguese residence, able to support themselves financially so as not to become a drain on the state but once they get permanent status, nothing much else appears to change.

You may be aware that to reflect their change of status post Brexit, all Brits resident in Portugal are being issued with a biometric residency permit so they can be tracked by the Schengen Database. At this point it is possible that SEF will confirm individuals right to continue to have temporary residency.

I

Clarification to Nortada's helpful post.

I believe at many Portuguese first 5yr residency applications you need to prove" able to support themselves financially". I was recently asked to prove this (by producing Portuguese Bank Statements) after already having residency for 4yrs in Nazare and all I was doing was changing the address to our new house in Carvalhal.

Some rules do seem to be applied slightly differently in different areas at present. In my case (2016) we first got an address (apartment we were buying although rental agreement and in some places a berthing contract is also acceptable). Next we got a Portuguese bank account. Next a NIR No (registration at the Financas). All these were achieved in the first few days. Finally a Saude No - Health registration. For health registration, as I'm over 65, I needed to first apply to UK NHS for an S1 form as any health costs they can recoup from the UK.

Dont laugh but I had to then take the S1 form to the Portuguese Social Security office who then send it BACK to UK for validation then Portuguese issue another form a SO73. With both these I returned to local Saude (health centre) and was issued with a Utente No (Health number). Yes a bit of a run around I know. You are still entitled to NHS treatment if we return for brief holiday.

For anyone "pretending" to live in Portugal possibly for tax reasons I would caution you as supermarket discount cards have your NIF No. recorded and EVERY purchase made is recorded centrally (here government computer systems work). You are also asked at every purchase whether you wish to include your NIF No (compulsory for property and car purchases). Purchases and receipts can be therefore used to prove you are living here. Central government give cash prizes to a number of randomly selected computer receipts -I assume this was to encourage move away from a cash economy that illegally avoided VAT (called IVA here)

I also became a tax resident here and applied for NHR status (Non Habitual Residency that actually means the converse - that you are permanently here!). This entitles you to a lower rate of income tax for 10yrs to assist you get settled. When I did it 0% but as it attracted so many EU retired citizens the EU put pressure on the Portuguese and its now I believe 10%. However this is still an advantage to many when withdrawing large sums from pensions (eg UK SIPP) that attract a much higher rate of tax. We sold our Nazare apartment in December 2019 to a couple from Paris that immediately registered for the 0% tax NHR status before rate changed.

The UK government pay my state pension in € straight into my Portuguese bank account and for my UK property I registered in the UK as an overseas Landlord. I am taxed in UK on any money (in my case only rent) earned in UK. My understanding is that as a tax resident of Portugal you will still be taxed in UK on any Government pension (civil servants, military, police etc). if you are taxed in UK you are not double taxed here.

We moved as its a nicer climate (wife suffers with arthritis) a friendly, welcoming population and a great social life (prior to Covid) with many expats from various countries (mostly EU but also many from South African, US and Canada). With a lower cost of living its also better quality of life. Many insist that health care here is better than UK - certainly private health care is good and much lower cost so more affordable. US citizens are required to have private health insurance and one US couple had their US health policy premium cut to 30% due to lower treatment costs here (only applicable if permanently living in Portugal).

We have our yacht berthed in Nazare marina (for 43' its €1600pa inc elec and water). Its still on the cards to go sailing South for 3 to 6 months using Nazare as our permanent sailing base. Having established residency in one EU country will hopefully avoid the restrictions that are likely to be imposed on UK citizens post 1 Jan21.

Moving to Portugal is not for everyone and those that give up say missing their UK families. is the reason. We have it differently in that with 4 children and 8 grandchildren we now have quality time with them and friends as they stay with us for holidays (hence the new bigger house). Be warned though that initially it got too much and we now insist on a few days break between visits to wash sheets etc.

Usually disclaimer I believe all above is accurate but check facts for yourself and happy for anyone to correct me if anything above needs clarification.

 

[grumpygit]

Only wish this were the case but from personal experience there are still many, not-in-the-know.

Think this justifies the 'banging on'. If I really irritate just put me on Ignore - I'll live.

And I think this may include us all. We are assuming that we will remain in the status quo, but will we.
As we all know rules/regulations/laws can soon change. I think for Greece #Tony Cross is probably on the nail for the moment in #16
I'm a flip flopper between the UK and Greece with no real conscious time span of visits to either but once the bio-metric cards come into force things are more than likely going to change. Even worse is if or when the EU run as one tax and residency regime things will no doubt change again. We don't know, there could be something already in the pipe line from the Eurocrats.
At the moment I'm just going to sit back and see what happens next before I make any hasty decisions.
There is umpteen topics and threads on here and a great wealth of knowledge on these subjects, the heading is clear, please let's see it we can keep this topic to this one posting instead of peeps opening side bars for the sake of it.