??The Honesty Thread?? Dual Residency, Tax Treaties, Driving Licenses, Boat Taxes, Health Cover & Other Implications Of Life In 2021 & Beyond

[cherod]

all very well mr G ,, but much of this is not relivant to many , this thread sometimes seems more like an emigrant / expat thread than a cruising one , there are many i am sure who are more concerned with the ability to cruise / travel / move between the countries rather than settling in any one particular ,, i see no problem in opening threads to accommodate both aspects rather perhaps than clog this one for those whom find it usefull .

 

[Sailfree]

Hopefully this thread will become a good repository of information relating to residency, as is it's intention. However, the average long term cruiser will not, I imagine, wish to take up residency, temporary or permanent, for a stay that is intended to be 6 months, a year, maybe 18 months? The requirements from 1/1/21 will I fear be far to onerous for such a short stay. There are already plenty of ex-pat forums out there that address the various problems and peculiarities of specific country's residency requirements. This is a sailing forum for long term cruisers/liveaboards. I fear that the information gathered here will sadly be of little practical use for those of us who are at present (and will be come 1/1/21) officially only 'resident' in the UK (or perhaps no where!) - and we are the ones that are still struggling with how to move forward (quite literally!) next year. Those that wish to 'relocate' will, as Nortada keeps pointing out, most likely already have made their choices and arrangements. The rest of us maybe need to look to the American forums for answers, assuming that it does become a no deal Brexit?

There are those that post to help and unfortunately those that post to criticise. Threads in various YBO forums have been a great assistance to me over the years. Thanks Nortada for starting so many helpful threads.
When we decide to cruise from Nazare after 1 Jan 21 I expect to enjoy the benefits of being a EU resident when visiting EU countries hence obtaining residency might be a really benefit with little downside once the facts of differences in various EU country rules are published in this thread.

 

[nortada]

Clarification to Nortada's helpful post.

I believe at many Portuguese first 5yr residency applications you need to prove" able to support themselves financially". I was recently asked to prove this (by producing Portuguese Bank Statements) after already having residency for 4yrs in Nazare and all I was doing was changing the address to our new house in Carvalhal.

Some rules do seem to be applied slightly differently in different areas at present. In my case (2016) we first got an address (apartment we were buying although rental agreement and in some places a berthing contract is also acceptable). Next we got a Portuguese bank account. Next a NIR No (registration at the Financas). All these were achieved in the first few days. Finally a Saude No - Health registration. For health registration, as I'm over 65, I needed to first apply to UK NHS for an S1 form as any health costs they can recoup from the UK.

Dont laugh but I had to then take the S1 form to the Portuguese Social Security office who then send it BACK to UK for validation then Portuguese issue another form a SO73. With both these I returned to local Saude (health centre) and was issued with a Utente No (Health number). Yes a bit of a run around I know. You are still entitled to NHS treatment if we return for brief holiday.

For anyone "pretending" to live in Portugal possibly for tax reasons I would caution you as supermarket discount cards have your NIF No. recorded and EVERY purchase made is recorded centrally (here government computer systems work). You are also asked at every purchase whether you wish to include your NIF No (compulsory for property and car purchases). Purchases and receipts can be therefore used to prove you are living here. Central government give cash prizes to a number of randomly selected computer receipts -I assume this was to encourage move away from a cash economy that illegally avoided VAT (called IVA here)

I also became a tax resident here and applied for NHR status (Non Habitual Residency that actually means the converse - that you are permanently here!). This entitles you to a lower rate of income tax for 10yrs to assist you get settled. When I did it 0% but as it attracted so many EU retired citizens the EU put pressure on the Portuguese and its now I believe 10%. However this is still an advantage to many when withdrawing large sums from pensions (eg UK SIPP) that attract a much higher rate of tax. We sold our Nazare apartment in December 2019 to a couple from Paris that immediately registered for the 0% tax NHR status before rate changed.

The UK government pay my state pension in € straight into my Portuguese bank account and for my UK property I registered in the UK as an overseas Landlord. I am taxed in UK on any money (in my case only rent) earned in UK. My understanding is that as a tax resident of Portugal you will still be taxed in UK on any Government pension (civil servants, military, police etc). if you are taxed in UK you are not double taxed here.

We moved as its a nicer climate (wife suffers with arthritis) a friendly, welcoming population and a great social life (prior to Covid) with many expats from various countries (mostly EU but also many from South African, US and Canada). With a lower cost of living its also better quality of life. Many insist that health care here is better than UK - certainly private health care is good and much lower cost so more affordable. US citizens are required to have private health insurance and one US couple had their US health policy premium cut to 30% due to lower treatment costs here (only applicable if permanently living in Portugal).

We have our yacht berthed in Nazare marina (for 43' its €1600pa inc elec and water). Its still on the cards to go sailing South for 3 to 6 months using Nazare as our permanent sailing base. Having established residency in one EU country will hopefully avoid the restrictions that are likely to be imposed on UK citizens post 1 Jan21.

Moving to Portugal is not for everyone and those that give up say missing their UK families. is the reason. We have it differently in that with 4 children and 8 grandchildren we now have quality time with them and friends as they stay with us for holidays (hence the new bigger house). Be warned though that initially it got too much and we now insist on a few days break between visits to wash sheets etc.

Usually disclaimer I believe all above is accurate but check facts for yourself and happy for anyone to correct me if anything above needs clarification.

Hi Sailfree,

Many thanks. I am sure your account is absolutely accurate but I would caution others, that this is the experience of a good friend if mine, who has done much to help newcomers to The Silver Coast.

Although the same quest (quite life in Portugal but retaining my status as a Brit), my experiences over the past 18 years are very different to Sailfree's

Neither is right or wrong. It just highlights the anomalies that is life in Portugal.

The art is knowing how to play the instrument to get the right tune.

Cheers,

Nortada

 

[syvictoria]

There are those that post to help and unfortunately those that post to criticise. Threads in various YBO forums have been a great assistance to me over the years. Thanks Nortada for starting so many helpful threads.
When we decide to cruise from Nazare after 1 Jan 21 I expect to enjoy the benefits of being a EU resident when visiting EU countries hence obtaining residency might be a really benefit with little downside once the facts of differences in various EU country rules are published in this thread.

My intention wasn't to criticise at all. I was simply pointing out that residency is not a solution, or indeed, even a realistic option for many on here. I wish the very best to all those that are relocating on a more permanent basis going forwards, and I hope that the transition post 1/1/21 will be a smooth one for them all. As for me, my future plans are a shambles and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it!!!

 

[sailaboutvic]

As for me, my future plans are a shambles and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it!!!

Join the club a combination of Brexit and the virus as put most people plain up in the air , we changed ours three time this year , we was to be out of the Med and somewhere in Portugal now , instead we back in Sicily although when all said and done it's not a bad place to be .
I started to think the best plain is no plain , it seen to service us ok for over 30 years cruising.

 

[Graham376]

For those of us who already have permanent residence status in Portugal (other places may have different rules), the future is pretty well settled. Renewal at 10 years will I'm told just be a formality, much like renewing a passport. Those on temporary 5 year will have to prove they have been resident, have sufficient funds etc. before being granted permanent. They may find the criteria changes during the next few years. Having residence can also extend our 90/180 days in Schengen as travel to and from country of residence doesn't count towards the 90 days limit.

Can only repeat what we already know - as things stand at the moment, for visiting UK based boat owners very little will change for holiday cruises but for those looking for extended stays, it looks pretty gloomy. Unless a deal is done, people will be limited to 90/180 in Schengen and boats for 18 months, after which they have to leave for a short period or pay tax.

I don't see any way around the people problem and only a couple of options for boats. If possible, have the boat in EU waters on 31/12 to keep EU VAT status and avoid the 18 month limit. If looking for a new retirement boat for extended European cruising, buy it (and later sell it) there VAT paid, it can still be UK registered but not brought to the UK as VAT paid.

 

[Sailfree]

My intention wasn't to criticise at all. I was simply pointing out that residency is not a solution, or indeed, even a realistic option for many on here. I wish the very best to all those that are relocating on a more permanent basis going forwards, and I hope that the transition post 1/1/21 will be a smooth one for them all. As for me, my future plans are a shambles and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it!!!

OK accepted but taking out residency is not necessarily permanent nor do you loose you UK rights but taking out a residency in any EU country may assist your ability to sail longer in warmer EU countries.

If you end up calling in to Nazare (its one of the few 24/7 ports of refuge on the Portuguese Atlantic Coast) look me up - always lots of wine on board!

 

[beermonkey]

For loads and loads of info for Greece, the 'British in Greece' Facebook page is teeming with useful info.....
Here's the link:
Facebook Groups

Most folk I know are still shocked to find that I have never used facebook - and the more I learn about it the less inclined I am to ever sign up - however - there do seem to be constant references to useful groups in facebook.

Is it really worth signing up to?

Perhaps I should post this as a seperate thread?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Most folk I know are still shocked to find that I have never used facebook - and the more I learn about it the less inclined I am to ever sign up - however - there do seem to be constant references to useful groups in facebook.

Is it really worth signing up to?

Perhaps I should post this as a seperate thread?

Depend what group you join you find a lot more info from people who are actually doing it .
Been there and got the TShirt .

 

[grumpygit]

all very well mr G ,, but much of this is not relivant to many , this thread sometimes seems more like an emigrant / expat thread than a cruising one , there are many i am sure who are more concerned with the ability to cruise / travel / move between the countries rather than settling in any one particular ,, i see no problem in opening threads to accommodate both aspects rather perhaps than clog this one for those whom find it usefull .

To add to my earlier post, there is a lot still on here that have cruised as liveaboards for years but as myself have found the need to be shore based, but lots still hold a wealth of knowledge. For myself I'm in Greece where I still own a yacht although I now only tend to day sail. Others wherever they wish to drop anchor for good.
I'm not yet an expat although I'm not a liveaboard either. I do find this site very informative no matter what, who or where you are based, people don't lose interest just because they don't cruise. Remember we all have to travel by which ever means to get where we wish to be.
I can't speak for others that have gone shore side to live in whatever EU or non EU country, but to be classed in the category of emigrant/expat and should be segregated is just wrong, as far as I am concerned we are all like minded sailors on a this forum sharing a passion whether past or present or even future.

sailfree said
There are those that post to help and unfortunately those that post to criticise. Threads in various YBO forums have been a great assistance to me over the years. Thanks Nortada for starting so many helpful threads.

Agreed and so many others too. To criticise? does that mean someone doesn't agree with your thoughts?
A Forum is a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged or debated . . . .

 

[Beneteau381]

Clarification to Nortada's helpful post.

I believe at many Portuguese first 5yr residency applications you need to prove" able to support themselves financially". I was recently asked to prove this (by producing Portuguese Bank Statements) after already having residency for 4yrs in Nazare and all I was doing was changing the address to our new house in Carvalhal.

Some rules do seem to be applied slightly differently in different areas at present. In my case (2016) we first got an address (apartment we were buying although rental agreement and in some places a berthing contract is also acceptable). Next we got a Portuguese bank account. Next a NIR No (registration at the Financas). All these were achieved in the first few days. Finally a Saude No - Health registration. For health registration, as I'm over 65, I needed to first apply to UK NHS for an S1 form as any health costs they can recoup from the UK.

Dont laugh but I had to then take the S1 form to the Portuguese Social Security office who then send it BACK to UK for validation then Portuguese issue another form a SO73. With both these I returned to local Saude (health centre) and was issued with a Utente No (Health number). Yes a bit of a run around I know. You are still entitled to NHS treatment if we return for brief holiday.

For anyone "pretending" to live in Portugal possibly for tax reasons I would caution you as supermarket discount cards have your NIF No. recorded and EVERY purchase made is recorded centrally (here government computer systems work). You are also asked at every purchase whether you wish to include your NIF No (compulsory for property and car purchases). Purchases and receipts can be therefore used to prove you are living here. Central government give cash prizes to a number of randomly selected computer receipts -I assume this was to encourage move away from a cash economy that illegally avoided VAT (called IVA here)

I also became a tax resident here and applied for NHR status (Non Habitual Residency that actually means the converse - that you are permanently here!). This entitles you to a lower rate of income tax for 10yrs to assist you get settled. When I did it 0% but as it attracted so many EU retired citizens the EU put pressure on the Portuguese and its now I believe 10%. However this is still an advantage to many when withdrawing large sums from pensions (eg UK SIPP) that attract a much higher rate of tax. We sold our Nazare apartment in December 2019 to a couple from Paris that immediately registered for the 0% tax NHR status before rate changed.

The UK government pay my state pension in € straight into my Portuguese bank account and for my UK property I registered in the UK as an overseas Landlord. I am taxed in UK on any money (in my case only rent) earned in UK. My understanding is that as a tax resident of Portugal you will still be taxed in UK on any Government pension (civil servants, military, police etc). if you are taxed in UK you are not double taxed here.

We moved as its a nicer climate (wife suffers with arthritis) a friendly, welcoming population and a great social life (prior to Covid) with many expats from various countries (mostly EU but also many from South African, US and Canada). With a lower cost of living its also better quality of life. Many insist that health care here is better than UK - certainly private health care is good and much lower cost so more affordable. US citizens are required to have private health insurance and one US couple had their US health policy premium cut to 30% due to lower treatment costs here (only applicable if permanently living in Portugal).

We have our yacht berthed in Nazare marina (for 43' its €1600pa inc elec and water). Its still on the cards to go sailing South for 3 to 6 months using Nazare as our permanent sailing base. Having established residency in one EU country will hopefully avoid the restrictions that are likely to be imposed on UK citizens post 1 Jan21.

Moving to Portugal is not for everyone and those that give up say missing their UK families. is the reason. We have it differently in that with 4 children and 8 grandchildren we now have quality time with them and friends as they stay with us for holidays (hence the new bigger house). Be warned though that initially it got too much and we now insist on a few days break between visits to wash sheets etc.

Usually disclaimer I believe all above is accurate but check facts for yourself and happy for anyone to correct me if anything above needs clarification.

Which airport do you use?

 

[grumpygit]

To follow the thread of the original post,
I do have an International Driving Licence but have any of you guys on here applied for or have a Greek Driving Licence? I think it's getting near the time that I should be looking into applying for one.

 

[beermonkey]

In a previous thread it was agreed it could be useful to know what is what in the different EU counties.

Some permit dual residency, some don't.
Some have Tax treaties that prevent double taxation, some don't.
Driving licenses can be a nightmare as can boat taxes (matriculation?)
Health cover, another minefield.
And there must be more I haven't even thought of.

The aim of this thread is for those in country and in the know to enlighten the rest of use so we can best navigate up the run-up 31/12/2020 and beyond.

The more we know the more we can make the system work for us.

This would be a great use of the hive-mind here - is it something the folks at noonsite could help with?

 

[cherod]

Most folk I know are still shocked to find that I have never used facebook - and the more I learn about it the less inclined I am to ever sign up - however - there do seem to be constant references to useful groups in facebook.

Is it really worth signing up to?

Perhaps I should post this as a seperate thread?

bitter sweet mate, be careful / selective and sparing with personal info

 

[Sailfree]

Which airport do you use?

We are cheapskates and usually go last flight to UK Lisbon to Stanstead about £19.99. Arrives at 23.20. We hire a car and often cheaper to keep it for the few days that one train fare Stanstead to Southampton.

Wife currently back in UK and got easyjet Lisbon to Gatwick for £24 and train to Southampton for £5!

Not sure purpose of Q so don't know if I have answered it. Some visitors found getting out of Porto airport so easy the fly there and hire a car.

Apart from old people I have stopped meeting people at airport as road tolls almost equal one coach trip. If we go to Lisbon for a concert we prefer to go by coach (approx €9).

New house at Carvalhal is 25min nearer Lisbon than Nazare so Porto is less attractive.

 

[Sailfree]

bitter sweet mate, be careful / selective and sparing with personal info

Daughter banned from it when on holiday as SIL business has had 2 serious break in attempts both after she posted something about being away. She has no connection to business but wrong people made the connection.

Bit like luggage labels. When going on holiday don't put home address visible advertising an house empty for 2 wks.

 

[Beneteau381]

We are cheapskates and usually go last flight to UK Lisbon to Stanstead about £19.99. Arrives at 23.20. We hire a car and often cheaper to keep it for the few days that one train fare Stanstead to Southampton.

Wife currently back in UK and got easyjet Lisbon to Gatwick for £24 and train to Southampton for £5!

Not sure purpose of Q so don't know if I have answered it. Some visitors found getting out of Porto airport so easy the fly there and hire a car.

Apart from old people I have stopped meeting people at airport as road tolls almost equal one coach trip. If we go to Lisbon for a concert we prefer to go by coach (approx €9).

New house at Carvalhal is 25min nearer Lisbon than Nazare so Porto is less attractive.

Am attracted by the low rates but access from airports has to be good.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Daughter banned from it when on holiday as SIL business has had 2 serious break in attempts both after she posted something about being away. She has no connection to business but wrong people made the connection.

Bit like luggage labels. When going on holiday don't put home address visible advertising an house empty for 2 wks.

Problem is some people will post what they had for breakfast .

 

[nortada]

Hi Guys,

There is an active thread on facebook and social media:-

Facebook - and other social media platforms

Please can we keep this tread on topic. Living & surviving in EU states.

Ta

 

[Besonders]

In Greece the existing EU registration and permanent EU registration documents are being exchanged for 5 and 10 year residence permits from Jan 1st. As far as tax is concerned you need to get a tax number (they call it a VAT number - ΑΦΜ) in order to do most things, including rent an apartment, buy a car or scooter, and a great more besides. Once you have a tax number you are legally required to submit yearly tax returns, most people pay an accountant to do this for them. Greece has a dual taxation agreement with the UK so it's quite common to be filling in zero to pay tax returns if you are tax resident in the UK. If you are resident in Greece for more than 183 days in any tax year (Greek tax years run form January to December) you are automatically a tax resident and you must then have a tax number and make yearly returns. In this case you're liable for Greek tax (on your worldwide income) for that tax year and it will be up to you to talk to HMRC about recovering any tax paid in the UK for that year under the dual taxation agreement.

I'm not even certain the yacht luxury tax still exists, the cruising tax that was recently introduced was intended as a replacement - because it was easy to avoid the luxury tax. In any case, as with the tax on cars here, it varies depending on the age of the boat. Those cruising round in boats 10 years or more old were paying tiny amounts in luxury tax - but as mentioned I'm not even sure it's still collected.

If you are planning to obtain Greek residence I strongly advise talking to a good Greek accountant. Ask the Greek friends you make to recommend one to you, they can easily save you their small fee in tax.

Tony,
what would make you think that luxury tax on yachts no longer exists in Greece.. I can confirm that it most certainly does. The cruising tax was never intended to replace luxury tax. All it has replaced is the DEKPA.
Luxury tax still exists on all property considered to be a luxury including vehicles and other property as you have correctly stated. there has been no change or repeal of the relevent greek statutes on this to my knowledge