vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I expect he is to direct competition but that does not include Danforths.Of course Peter Smith couldn't be even a teeny weeny bit biased, could he?
The Herreshoff Anchor
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boomerangben
Well-Known Member
So what are the holding characteristics of a hereschoff anchor on a 2:1 scope in rock or weed? Or shall I just make an educated guess that holding in rock/weed is so variable that you cannot make a reliable claim, which then must call into question the wisdom of anchoring in rock/weed at all. It would then fall into the realms of seamanship and wise skippers should know that if their plan A needs a plan B based on anchoring in rock, then plan A is no longer viable. If an anchorage is full, go to your plan b
Based on your conclusions that a) people only use the anchors on their bow, b) you don’t have time to deploy a locker stowed anchor in a storm and c) your herreshoff is too valuable to come out of the locker, I wonder if sitting down with a good cup of tea and reviewing the thoughts you have shared on this forum might save you some cash? You certainly haven’t convinced me to change my solution and wonder if your proposed lecture would change anyone else’s ideas…..
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
Yes, the purpose of this thread is a private asylum for one poster - facts or reality not required
rgarside
Well-Known Member
I think Odysseus' anchor was probably the best.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Is the lecture real, I'm shuddering, or a simple facet of dilusion. If its real I'm wondering (and worrying) who might have commissioned such a lecture.
Jonathan
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TNLI
Well-Known Member
SAFE ANCHORING
Real good seamansip is partly about assuming the worst will happen and all of your plans get binned after bad weather takes you by surprise, you run out of good fuel, or in 2 cases where I've run into trouble, got tangled up with a discarded fishing gear, or a FAD net.
Oddly enough one of most irritating comments I used to hear from boats of all shapes and sizes after they run into big trouble and declare and emergency or agree terms for a tow that might takes days to complete, was, "I thought we could make it to the next harbour, river or anchorage". Some of them get very close to their destination before realising that none of their plans are viable, or the anchorage is far too full.
A good set of anchors and rodes, should be regarded as items of safety gear. In a real good cruising boat, there should be 2 main anchors of different types. One of them a normal M&S anchor for a good anchorage, the other should be for when your plans go pear shapped close in to a coast. One sensible target for a small boat is the ability to anchor in 50m depth over rocks, weed, cobblestones. In some areas there are no weed beds, like central Southern Pacific Islansds, Canary Islands Eastern to South West quadrants, (Used to anchor a 60ft steel trawler near the NW corner sometimes and that does have some weeds),
Oddly enough, you normally have 5mins of drifting time, to find, assemble and deploy a Herreshoff, even a copy.
I'm chasing a used Bronze Herreshoff, but already have 2 other anchors that work with only 2 to 1 of rope rode. The early design has been copied by a number of companies like Luke, and it works far better than a normal fishermans anchor in mud, (Average), and to some extent sand, (Poor but far better than a normal admiralty anchor).
The Herreshoff Three-Piece Stock Anchor | WoodenBoat Magazine
Anchor Reset Tests - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)
Note: If you like to recover an anchor by hand, or use a manual windlass, the tables should be a WEIGHT vs holding or performance, BUT if you use a powered windlass SIZE is the issue. That's normal for some boats that have limited storage space, or deck area. It's a pity they do not list both in any anchor test. My list of anchors for a long cruise:
Genuine steel CQR, (Almost new so no worn hinge),
Spade
Force 4 steel Danforth, (Spare)
Folding Mk 1 Herreshoff copy. (Deep water or rocks and weed).
Cheap bar type fishermans clamped to stanchion.
PS: At no point have I suggested replacing a normal anchor with a deep water or rocks, stones and weed capable anchor. It's an extra, unless you operate around tricky rocky and weedy coastlines, also don't forget that the main reason why boats are lost at anchor, is because their main anchor dragged, BUT picked up weed and then failed to reset. The Lewmar Delta and CQR are both OK in some weed, as are other heavy plow anchors.
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TNLI
Well-Known Member
Don really knew which anchor was which, and I have a lot of respect for his opinions and the work he did. This article is of interest:
DON STREET’S IOLAIRE: Lost On the Coast of Ibiza - Wave Train
If you talk to the sailors or fisherman who live or work around the North West coast of the Pacific North West, the only 2 anchors that they recommend are the genuine CQR, and a copy of the Herreshoff. They do a lot of anchoring in rocks, cobblestones and heavy weed with some ares of mud, or mixed mud and sand. Steve of SV Penope anchor test fame did point out that the most popular anchor in that region of the USA was the CQR, BUT nearly all of the boats that carry a CQR also carry some type of Herreshoff.
If you did get into a serious storm at anchor and were unable to leave, then using a Herreshoff with a rode that could be mostly rope if you don't have a second chain rode available, (I didn't carry a second chain rode when I did my first circumnavigation, BUT that was a mistake, as the anchor locker of Dicha, a steel Van Der Stadt 34 was big enough to have been divided up into 2 lockers), with a CQR as the main on an all chain rode with a couple of long 3 ply snubbers to a chain hook, should reduce the chances of the anchor set up failing. The Lewmar Delta is just as good as a Lewmar CQR, and does set or reset slightly faster, although with a slightly lower final holding power. In a crowded anchorage it would be a better choice for a main, and is prety good in moderate weed.
I've never anchored in or near any kelp beds, but have been talking to a local old timer who has used anchorages, or been forced to anchor up in a kelp bed due to a failure or conditions being unsafe in a main anchrage, (Too many boats anchored too close together). He did insist that you need to use a lot of power in astern to set an anchor, and might need to make a few attempts before the Delta or CQR finally sets. That's because the anchor can get hung up in the kelp, so reaching the actual bottom and setting the main requires some time. Once set into kelp, it's highly unlikely that a CQR, Delta or Herreshoff would drag, assuming you are not near the edge of the bed.
Once the main is set, in interesting conditions I would then deploy but not set the secondary main about 30 degres off the main. Anchors like the Herreshoff, Danforth, fishermans or some of the more modern light weights, do set and reset very quickly, BUT if there is any type of weed in the anchorage or location you are anchoring in has some weed, USE A PLOW, as they are all sort of OK with weed hung around them. If you are forced to go modern because you feel the image of your boat has to invole a new generation anchor, the Excel plow seems OK, as it's a copy of a Delta with bent edges.
PS: If you look at the picture below, the Herreshoff is mounted just starboard of the Bow.
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SimonKNZ
Well-Known Member
I'm hesitant to encourage you, but having recently changed from a Delta to a "copy of a delta with bent edges" of the same weight I can assure you that the difference is night and day. The delta would frequently drag before setting in good to medium holding ground, and sometimes (maybe 20%) need to be weighed and relaid before it would set. On one occasion, a 180 wind shift resulted in it unsetting and refusing to set or provide any hold over at least 100m of dragging - on this occasion there were several other yachts doing the same thing but I didn't have a chance to check their anchor types (definitely not Herreshoff because I've never seen one in many years of sailing), because it was in the small hours of the night. My previous boat had a CQR which was even worse in terms of consistent setting.
In contrast, my new, expensive slightly bent plough sets instantly every time I use it - with an all-chain rode and usually 3:1 scope in 5-7m depth. A smaller scope in 20m for fishing was similarly effective. I haven't tried it on cobblestones (not sure what the chart symbol for these is), rocks or in 50m of water yet because I exercise seamanship to avoid such situations. I also haven't tried the 180 change of direction, but the testing online shows this as a strength of the Excel and is one reason I chose it . The only "problem" with the Excel is that breaking it out requires patience, even after a brief lunchtime stop at anchor - but this is not a problem that bothers me
Just my 2c for consideration
TNLI
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC
I'm not a real fan of the Danforth, but do carry one as part of my set of anchors. I don't think anyone makes the original design, and the quality of all of the different versions varies a lot.
I have decided to use the one I have as a spare, as the shank of the Spade is tougher than a steel Danforth, and I have seen a number bent.
ON TOPIC
Finished replacing the chains for my folding Mk 1 Herrenshoff, BUT not happy with the quality of the galvanising, as I suspect it will result in the hinge area corroding. So I'm going to spot weld it in position, and then get it powder coated, along with a small fishermans anchor, that is a bit corroded.
Now for some history about the designers and manufacturers of the Herreshoff anchor:
About - Herreshoff Marine Museum
Most of the articles about the Herreshoff brothers relate to their boats. They designed and built their own anchors for those boats, and because of the time spent over many years of making minor change to their basic anchor design, I don't think their last version can be improved on.
The crazy thing is that I used to go fishing on boats operating out of Gloucester around 50 miles North of Boston, and if I was not based in Boston, I would be flying from some field further to the South West, so must have driven past the Herreshoff museum a number of times.
The picture is of a Crewsaver anchor, which is a reather interesting cross between a fishermans and a grapnel, and a picture of the real McCoy bronze anchor and bag. I've given up trying to find a bronze one, as they never seem to get sold.
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TNLI
Well-Known Member
There is no way of knowing what most modern anchors are made of, as no one seems to be drilling holes in them and sending off a sample to a lab. All you have a web site and advertising claims of what they are supposed to be made of. All of them except the Spade seem to be light weight modified copies of existing designs.
They are not too common in the UK, and the Lewmar Delta still seems to be no 1. Never seen a picture of a Delta that was bent and they do seem to tollerate a certain amount of weed, which can be a serious problem with any non plow anchors and it's that weed that is the main cause of unexpected dragging.
Oddly enough if you consider how popular the genuine CQR and Herreshoff are in the very difficult anchoring conditions in the Pacific North West, not one picture of either type shows one bent or broken. The only picture of a broken and bent CQR was of the very first cast Iron version that is worth avoiding, (It's the one with 1/2 lb wight marks), luckily I've got an almost new genuine steel version.
Alas my folding Herreshoff is probably made of recycled cast Iron, so will rust very quickly, (Good quality cast Iron that has a smooth surface does not). I've decided it's the best version of the Herreshoff available, but will weld it in position so it will be just a 2 part anchor and stored on deck clamped to a stanchion like one class of RNLI boats that carry an Admiralty fishermans.
One odd thing I can't understand about replies on any of the anchor threads is why boaters insist that only one main anchor is the way to go, when it defintely is not the way to go in a storm. It's the combination of 2 different anchors, with one good for some weeds and another good for cobblestones or rocks. In the real world you often have to use anchorages where the holding is listed as moderate and the bottom as mixed. I've used a lot of anchorages like that and most boats were using 2 anchors, normally a CQR or Delta and some type of cobblestones and rocks anchor. That seemed to be either a Herreshoff or some type of fishermans, or a Bruce if it was a US flagged boat in particular.
Most local boats used a grapnel rather than a fishermans or a Herreshoff, and a Danforth or a CQR copy. Grapnels and Danforths are both cheap, although not so good in a storm as they are easily bent.
I was tring to sell my small bar type fishermans and a red folding grapnel, but a chap that came around to look at them noticed they were not in the best condition, and made an offer for a Spade I was going to restore that I could not refuse, although that was because the hot dipped galvanising is going to cost half the cost of a new one!! I did take a look around for a good used Delta, but they seem to be unobtainium at a sensible price.
Double anchor the complex way, (I do not use this method):
How to Set a Double Anchor | Cruising World
Double anchor the simple way:
Boat Anchor Tips - How to Set Two Anchors in a "V" Pattern - YouTube
Note the 10 to 1 rode is for rope, not chain and anyone that uses 2 anchors of the same type has not done their homework, cos you really do need to have 2 different anchors when the bottom is marked mixed or unknown. A Delta or CQR and a Danforth that I used to use is no good in cobblestones or Rocks, A Delta or CQR and a Bruce is good for anything apart from moderate or heavy weed. BUT having done my homework, I'm convinced the best all bottom pair is a Plow, (A genuine steel CQR in my case , AND a Herreshoff. That should work in almost any situation or type of bottom. It will even work if you try and drag into deep water, as theHerreshoff works well with 2 to 1.
Final note: I only set the CQR which does need a lot of setting, as the Herreshoff will set itself. That way I can lift and move it more easily using a dighy. That second anchor can even be used to move sideways without starting the engine, you just recover it and take it to the opposite side.
PS: Here is one funny clip about how difficult it is to unbend a bent anchors shank without a hydraulic press. The blow torch is far too small!
How To Straighten a Bent Boat Anchor 2016 S/V LADY PENELOPE II - YouTube
You tube ha a whole bunch of clips of bent anchors, although I could not fond one of a bent Herreshoff, Delta or genuine steel, (Not cast Iron or a copy), CQR. Top of the list are Danforths and alloy ones in particular.
This article should be compulsory reading for owners or users of modern light anchors:
Bends and Breaks: Anchor Shank Strength - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
TNLI :
I could go through your lengthy posts and find numerous examples similar to the above but it’s tedious. So many of your stated ‘facts’ and ‘certainties’ are really just your opinions and many of your opinions are highly dubious.
Might I humbly suggest that you stop throwing your OPINIONS around as if they are facts. You also keep quoting sources that are either irrelevant or don’t actually support your opinions.
Seamanship is NOT a simple black and white subject.
It’s statements such as these that bring your ‘opinions’ into complete disrepute. What on earth do you mean by ‘just as good’? Where’s your evidence for ‘sets or resets slightly faster’? Under what conditions? What seabed? What scope? What depth? (Required scope and depth are not simply related). Slightly lower holding power in what seabed?
I could go through your lengthy posts and find numerous examples similar to the above but it’s tedious. So many of your stated ‘facts’ and ‘certainties’ are really just your opinions and many of your opinions are highly dubious.
Might I humbly suggest that you stop throwing your OPINIONS around as if they are facts. You also keep quoting sources that are either irrelevant or don’t actually support your opinions.
Seamanship is NOT a simple black and white subject.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Cutting them up and testing them is exactly what I do. Once again you present your opinion as facts. The best modern anchors have astonishingly strong shanks that will stand up to massive abuse.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
The anchor manufacturers specifications form part of a contract when sold, advertising is regulated in the UK and EU and must not contain misleading information. The dodgy Rocna material was discovered and addressed by the designer and manufacturer. Other anchors have been tested by individuals to verify strength which matches with the specifications. The reality is that shit anchor material gets found out and widely discussed, such as copies of Bruce and CQRs. Personally, I think your advise is gash and should be ignored, as there is wealth of reliably data for people seeking to purchase an anchor, if they do their own research.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
TNLI said
" All of them except the Spade seem to be light weight modified copies of existing designs. ..."
The Spade shank profile is a copy of the Delta shank.
As most anchors are made from similar grades of steel very few of them are lightweight - the exceptions being Fortress, Aluminium Spade and aluminium Excel. The Supreme, Rocna, Epsilon, steel Excel, steel Spade all have roughly the same hold for the same weight of anchor - and twice the hold of a similarly weighted, well set, CQR or Delta.
Interesting that TNLI says Excel is a copy of a Deltas - yet Excel has twice the hold (for the same weight steel anchor).
TNLI seems to Iive in an alternative universe and if he reads the posts of others - completely ignores what is scripted.
Is the FOB Lite still available?
Jonathan
" All of them except the Spade seem to be light weight modified copies of existing designs. ..."
The Spade shank profile is a copy of the Delta shank.
As most anchors are made from similar grades of steel very few of them are lightweight - the exceptions being Fortress, Aluminium Spade and aluminium Excel. The Supreme, Rocna, Epsilon, steel Excel, steel Spade all have roughly the same hold for the same weight of anchor - and twice the hold of a similarly weighted, well set, CQR or Delta.
Interesting that TNLI says Excel is a copy of a Deltas - yet Excel has twice the hold (for the same weight steel anchor).
TNLI seems to Iive in an alternative universe and if he reads the posts of others - completely ignores what is scripted.
Is the FOB Lite still available?
Jonathan
TNLI
Well-Known Member
Now I know this clip is disturbing as are Steves conclusions about the boaters in the Pacific North West:
CQR vs. Delta. Anchor Test Video # 124 - YouTube
Lots of different sea beds and repeated tests with a genuine steel CQR, and he seems far less biased about anchors and was not sponsored by an anchor company.
There were similar tests done that confirmed those results, and that's why Lewmar decided to put the CQR into production, and to develop a stainless version. I had a few drinks with the senior RNLI captain in charge of the self righting tests done from Southampton. He came over to Poole to see the offshore lifeboat I'm building, so apart from the obvious subject of self righting and flood tests, he did mention they were using a Spade and a Delta, but the CQR was not in production at the time the decision was taken.
I've looked at the Spade a number of times, and I will ask him if he knows if the shank is the same as a normal one, cos if you look at a picture of the one that is bent and back at the one on the bow of an offshore RNLI boat, the civil version looks to have a thinner shank. Not really sure at present.
The captain from SOU did confirm what Steve of SV Penope demonstrated in his tests, and that was that the Delta sets and resets faster than a CQR, which is why it's better for a crowded anchorage, but the old genuine CQR with an unworn hinge has better holding figures. My comments are based mostly on that test and the opinions of some real experts who anchor every day in difficuly holding conditions in the North West coast of the USA and Western coast of Canada. In both places the genuine steel CQR and some type, (Mostly Luke copies), of Herreshoff anchors are by far the most popular anchors for very good reasons.
I agree that seamanship is not a black and white subject, but no one on this forum has suggested a better pair of all conditions anchors than a Lewmar CQR and a real bronze Herreshoff. Alas the latter is unobtanium, and I can't locate one single used one for sale.
C.Q.R.® Anchors - Stainless Steel | Lewmar
Lots of folks throw opinions around, but I will try to stick to links that most of you will ignore, but if you have to go for a serious cruise, watch the Steves tests, look at the link I posted to the old Practical Sailor tests that mention the Herreshoff, and more recent articles on anchor shank failures. Don Street was correct to carry a Herreshoff copy and say it was the best general purpose anchor, BUT obviously he would have used a CQR or Danforth in sand, as the Herreshoff is only one third up the sand test table.
Don't forget to suggest a pair of anchors for use in all conditions is the safe way to go. I might even suggest a plow first, then something else that does not bend and will work in deep water.
PS: Anyone got a good used Bronze Herreshoff for sale ?? Still got a slightly rusty folding grapnel for sale, as I just found a company that is making stainless and alloy grapnels for small tenders, which is an inflatable canoe in my case, as they can be used in worse conditions than a rubber duck.
Like the look of this folding grapnel for my canoe, if I need it cos I've lost a paddle or stopped to catch some fish for dinner:
2.5KG Stainless Steel Folding Grapnel Anchor - 2.5KGS Marine Boat Yacht Secure | eBay
This type has a dubious reputation for holding power, but will work with a 2 to 1 rope rode. Used one in combination with a Danforth for a small fishing boat that I needed to anchor close in North of Peurto Mogan in mixed holding. Very good Sardine fishing at the time, although you need to tow a small net around in a circle to bag some. Illegal of course, but I was only a deckhand. Qualified crew, but wrong boat issue. World record Stingrays possible if you like dangerous fish handling. Hammerheads, the odd Blue and Mako sharks close in at night. The Hammers eat stingrays and octopus, the Blues and Makos were probably eating mackerel and small North Atlantic Bonito, or Skipjack Tuna.
Finally, if you like posing just look at those lovely storm anchors below, and just imagine how you street cred's would soar with the more educated anchor specialists in your local marina.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Can you explain what it is about those 2 anchors that makes them specifically "storm" anchors? They look just like good old fashioned fishermans and CQR types now commonly seen as decorations on quaysides, roundabouts and in smaller sizes in gardens belonging to yachtsmen - I have 3 abandoned CQRs in mine.
Also can you please explain what it is that differentiates a "storm" anchor from an ordinary anchor? Is it for example because it is no good in "normal" anchoring and you have to go and find a storm to anchor in to make use of it? Given that you are the only person I have ever come across that uses the term I am sure you must have some special knowledge that is denied to everybody else.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
To my eyes there is not a huge difference between the Luke and the Herreshoff anchors other than maybe some subtle features. I see Luke recommend a weight of two lbs per foot of boat length, which takes some handling even on a 25 ft 'lifeboat'.
noelex
Well-Known Member
Any anchor design can bend.
I have not seen many bent Deltas, but here are few I have seen and photographed.
TNLI
Well-Known Member
Alas you are comparing anchors by weight and that is only correct if you do not have a good windlass or pair of arms. With most boats the limiting factor is the deck area and how it fits in the rollers or other mounts, NOT WEIGHT. The lightweight thin or alloy anchors produce almost the same or less holding power than a CQR if you look at the practical sailor tables based on deck area. Solidly built anchors like the genuine steel CQR are almost impossible to bend, and a storm anchor must not be too easy to bend. The only pictures of a bent Delta are of one that is so rusty it's hard to see if it's a copy or not.
The Excel is a modified copy of a Delta, but with thinner plates and cut out letters to help it bend. Obviously if you weaken the anchor by making it lighter it will have twice the holding power per pound, or four times if it's a even more easily bent or broken aluminium version.
If you are not concerned by how strong an anchor is, and can't lift a heavy Herreshoff or CQR, but have plenty of space for a light weight anchor, then the Fortress will outperform all of the new generation anchors, unless it picks up any significant weed, or finishes up in cobblestones or rocks. It's only safe to use in clean mud or sand. The same issues with weed and rocks apply to all Danforths.
So for a weight critical race boat, a Fortress main and a Excel plow would make a lot of sense, unless you get into real heavy weed or rocks. So forget that pair and try a Fortress and a light weight bar type fishermans. That combination would work, although using an anchor that does hold in mud and to a lesser extent sand, in addition to heavy weed and rocks makes more sense.
Don Street and all the boat manufacturers who sell their boats with either a Lewmar Delta in the UK, or a Lewmar CQR in the USA, (The Lewmar Claw is often used as a secondary), and who often carry a 2 or 3 piece Herreshoff or Admiralty pattern fishermans below decks, are not fools, as are the folks from Practical sailor or Steve from SV Penope testing fame. Results by size, often of more interest:
Anchor Reset Tests - Practical Sailor
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
The link to the article that you are quoting is 23 years old! Do you really believe that anchors have not developed in that time?
No new generation anchors were included, as most had not even been built then. Even the Bugel, widely regarded as the fore-runner to new generation and concave anchors, was known but not tested. By modern standards a meaningless test, ok in its day but prehistoric in anchor terms.
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