The Herreshoff Anchor

[NormanS]

Wow! This must be serious stuff if we now have Jonathan advocating short posts.

 

[vyv_cox]

You could ask the RNLI nicely if they have any of their Arun class lifeboat anchors knocking around still - they carried 2 x 150 lb 3 part fisherman anchors on their foredecks.
If they do, they might be agreeable to selling one - and I am sure they would be happy to get rid of it for a lot less than 1500 pounds.
And this would be the ultimate storm anchor - you certainly would not drag that in a hurry.
Getting it back on board afterwards might be a tad awkward though.
Alternatively, just buy a 'New Gen' anchor.

I was working at the RNLI 30 years ago and one job I had was to help Stuart Welford (the RNLI research and development manager) to analyse all the data that they had collected on some exhaustive anchor trials they had carried out up in Scotland - they were especially keen on doing tests in kelp.
There were no 'new gen' anchors available, and the best 'all round' anchor (as a result of these trials) turned out to be - a Delta!
I seem to remember that the early Severns and Trents were fitted with Fisherman and Delta anchors (that is progress, moving from two Fishermen to one) - but I think that the lifeboats now have Spades or some other new gen anchor?

I have photos of the Hoylake Mersey class lifeboat just before its replacement with a Shannon, 2013. It carried a Delta.

 

[TNLI]

This is complete drivel. I appreciate that you are fixated with anchor shanks getting bent but you are boldly making statements without a shred of evidence. You’ve jumped from new generation anchors have weak shanks (highly debatable) to ‘they all bend in rocks’. No they don’t because I use one. And the Spade anchor (amongst others) is pretty good in weed! I know because as I say above, it’s my go to anchor.

And don’t suggest I lack anchoring experience in demanding conditions. For example I’ve secured a boat through a hurricane. (albeit only a Cat 2). Bows secured in the mangrove, two anchors out the back end…. etc etc.

Thanks for the reply, and I will go back and edit the post to say MOST of the modern anchors have weak shanks that fail before the chain, GET BENT FLUKES OR EDGES, that prevent them functioning, or in the case of kit built anchors FAILED NUTS OR BOLTS.

All of the CQR or Delta shaped plows function to some extent in light to moderate weed, as does the Spade. The Spade is a very good anchor, although they do get bent and none of the modern anchors function well in rocks. Those that hang up in a temporay manner like the Danforth, are in reality dangerous because they then fail to reset after the wind veers. It's far better if an anchor behaves like a CQR or Delta, and fails to set in the first place, as that will give you a big hint that you are trying to anchor in a bad area of a mixed type of sea bed. Some anchors like the Bruce do a similar trick in weeds, by providing some degree of holding and then failing to reset.

Steve of SV Penope fame made a stement about how bad some copies of old classic like the Danforth can be, and I was suprised that some copies are far worse than I thought possible and were from major companies. The issue seems to be the use of cheaper steel, although in some cases the hinge design was too tight, which can result in a failure if one plastic bag gets stuck in it, that was in one video is just another reason to use 2 main anchors.

The shank tests I've read or seen a clip of did not include a vertical pull which can happen if an anchor gets jammed under or beteen rocks, it's that pull that breaks kit built anchors, and I've seen several failed ones where 2 of the 4 bolts had pulled out before the anchor released. One of the Fortress copies had lost a nut, and poor quality far Eastern stainless nuts are seriously dangerous in very low fatigue life or shear failure terms.

I POST TO FORUMS LIKE THIS ONE AS A MEANS OF EDITING WHAT WILL BE A LECTURE ON ANCHORS FOR SERIOUS CRUISING AND OFFSHORE RESCUE, and that includes why some boats using what seem to be good anchors drag. Top of that lists is weeds, and debris fouling an anchor seems to be second or third, as the failure of far Eastern stainless parts like anchor connectors, shackles, nuts and bolts is defintely a potential second in the EU or USA. In third world countries the boaters seem to know about very poor stainless, forged documents and special marks, as their country is often in that line of business. The more educated a boater is, the easier it can be to sell them a copy, although on occasions like packet swaps, it's partly an inside job. There was a batch of 7mm swageless terminals that failed within 6 to 12 months of daily use that were supplied by the manufacturer and looked perfect in every way, but were in fact made from stainless that had not been subject to 3 or 4 different types of treatment. In some cases the parts are dumped defective stock pulled out of a bin by the employess who used the companies own printer to make the labels. Many of the real good looking LiPO4 smoke bomb batteries sold through Alibaba and Fleabay have failed tests and Q&A inspections in China, but are then sold off to easily fooled boaters in the UK, EU and USA.

OFF TOPIC
PS: I had a serious backstay failure just West of Fiji due to one of the top of the range 7mm swageless fittings purchased directly from the manufacturer in the UK, and having suffered 2 other premature shear or fatigue failures of a bolt and a clevis pin supplied by a local chandler, I do not trust stainless parts that are used for any application that can endanger the life of the crew or passengers. One chandler involved was in the Cannery Islands but depated some years ago, after some chaps started dumping unwanted paint from a nearby yard on his premises and over his advertising. Oddly enough the owner was arrested and convicted of credit card fraud just after I left port, after failing to read the cards name, as it was that of the new port captain and he did not think that being overcharged for shipping for a part that was on the shelf was funny. I had to walk past his office with my tins of old paint, and I will never forget him standing there in his uniform, with his hands over his eyes.

 

[vyv_cox]

Thanks for the reply, and I will go back and edit the post to say MOST of the modern anchors have weak shanks that fail before the chain, GET BENT FLUKES OR EDGES, that prevent them functioning, or in the case of kit built anchors FAILED NUTS OR BOLTS.

All of the CQR or Delta shaped plows function to some extent in light to moderate weed, as does the Spade. The Spade is a very good anchor, although they do get bent and none of the modern anchors function well in rocks. Those that hang up in a temporay manner like the Danforth, are in reality dangerous because they then fail to reset after the wind veers. It's far better if an anchor behaves like a CQR or Delta, and fails to set in the first place, as that will give you a big hint that you are trying to anchor in a bad area of a mixed type of sea bed. Some anchors like the Bruce do a similar trick in weeds, by providing some degree of holding and then failing to reset.

Steve of SV Penope fame made a stement about how bad some copies of old classic like the Danforth can be, and I was suprised that some copies are far worse than I thought possible and were from major companies. The issue seems to be the use of cheaper steel, although in some cases the hinge design was too tight, which can result in a failure if one plastic bag gets stuck in it, that was in one video is just another reason to use 2 main anchors.

The shank tests I've read or seen a clip of did not include a vertical pull which can happen if an anchor gets jammed under or beteen rocks, it's that pull that breaks kit built anchors, and I've seen several failed ones where 2 of the 4 bolts had pulled out before the anchor released. One of the Fortress copies had lost a nut, and poor quality far Eastern stainless nuts are seriously dangerous in very low fatigue life or shear failure terms.

I POST TO FORUMS LIKE THIS ONE AS A MEANS OF EDITING WHAT WILL BE A LECTURE ON ANCHORS FOR SERIOUS CRUISING AND OFFSHORE RESCUE, and that includes why some boats using what seem to be good anchors drag. Top of that lists is weeds, and debris fouling an anchor seems to be second or third, as the failure of far Eastern stainless parts like anchor connectors, shackles, nuts and bolts is defintely a potential second in the EU or USA. In third world countries the boaters seem to know about very poor stainless, forged documents and special marks, as their country is often in that line of business. The more educated a boater is, the easier it can be to sell them a copy, although on occasions like packet swaps, it's partly an inside job. There was a batch of 7mm swageless terminals that failed within 6 to 12 months of daily use that were supplied by the manufacturer and looked perfect in every way, but were in fact made from stainless that had not been subject to 3 or 4 different types of treatment. In some cases the parts are dumped defective stock pulled out of a bin by the employess who used the companies own printer to make the labels. Many of the real good looking LiPO4 smoke bomb batteries sold through Alibaba and Fleabay have failed tests and Q&A inspections in China, but are then sold off to easily fooled boaters in the UK, EU and USA.

OFF TOPIC
PS: I had a serious backstay failure just West of Fiji due to one of the top of the range 7mm swageless fittings purchased directly from the manufacturer in the UK, and having suffered 2 other premature shear or fatigue failures of a bolt and a clevis pin supplied by a local chandler, I do not trust stainless parts that are used for any application that can endanger the life of the crew or passengers. One chandler involved was in the Cannery Islands but depated some years ago, after some chaps started dumping unwanted paint from a nearby yard on his premises and over his advertising. Oddly enough the owner was arrested and convicted of credit card fraud just after I left port, after failing to read the cards name, as it was that of the new port captain and he did not think that being overcharged for shipping for a part that was on the shelf was funny. I had to walk past his office with my tins of old paint, and I will never forget him standing there in his uniform, with his hands over his eyes.

Perhaps you could enlighten us about these anchors with weak shanks. No new generation steel anchors that I know of have unhardened shanks, other than those that derive their strength from having three dimensions. The best of the SHHP ones are made from seriously strong grades that far exceed what is provided for HHP, although even there Delta is an excellent heat treated grade.

I cannot recall hearing of a broken shank on any modern named anchor and bends are very rare indeed. So evidence please.

 

[TNLI]

“or a oversize unbreakable CQR, Delta or Bruce, (It must not bend or break),”

More drivel. All anchors break if abused enough.

Also your harping on about short scope anchoring reveals a lack of knowledge regarding scope in deeper waters. The 5x or 7x etc formula only works in shallow water. It’s an approximation then.. Please stop cluttering up the forum with your fixations and disinformation.

PLEASE READ MY POST AND POINT OUT WHERE I SAID 5 OR 7 TIMES SCOPE, that is probably from another poster. I mentioned 2 to 1 of rope a number of times.

WHEN DEEP WATER ANCHORING YOU ARE OFTEN TRYING TO GET A HOLD WITH A VERY SHORT SCOPE, The Herreshoff and most good fishermans, the Admiralty pattern in particular, will work with just 2 to 1 of rope, or mostly rope rode. That is one reason why you often find them stored aboard offshore yachts cruising areas like Scotland, (Never been there), Western coast of the USA, Cannery Islands, and a lot of other very interesting places to anchor that can be very lacking in terms of anchorages with good holding. Some of the best spots to fish are seriously problematic in holding terms, which is why I will carry an undersize cheap bar fishermans, as a good disposable.

Most yachts don't carry enough chain to get any of the common anchors to hold in deep water, and I've had to do 2 serious rescues of cruising yachts drifting in towards the cliffs and large rocks in an area where the sea bed was at least 50m of poor to moderate mixed type, including debris like old fish traps. One yacht had suffered a rigging failure in the WAZ, and then wrapped a line around the prop, the other was some twit who was intentionally motoring too close to an area that is nearly all deep water in calm conditions because the passengers liked the view. They had 50m of chain and 100m of rope rode deployed with a copy of a CQR. There was a Danforth in the aft locker, (It might have held as they work on the 3 to 1 scope), but nothing else, no second 50m of chain, no more lines and the failure of the engine, (Blocked primary fuel filter), occured close to the cliff as they wanted to look at some small cave. No times to try joining dock lines.

Using a boat around deep water and Iffy holding off some very interesting beaches without having a short scope general purpose anchor rigged and ready on a second rode is not a safe way of equipping a boat. A grapnel or fishermans would have stopped the drift in one case, but the other boat would have needed a more serious large fishermans, BUT the Herreshoff would have been the best choice by far, as there are enough rocks and weed along the NW coast of Grand Cannery Island, although its performance in mud and sand would have stopped or slowed the drift. Nice earner in both cases, and the port captain impounded both boats, (One got chained to the pontoon), until the bills were paid. In both cases he insisted they purchase more rope and a good grapnel. The other chap asked me what he needed and then purchased a second 80m chain rode and a good used fishermans. I also gave hime a local homemade grapnel to clean and paint. Trying to sail through a WAZ at night was not a good idea, although the Chinese rigging wire didn't help, as it failed before the terminals. Half of the terminals had stated to break stands mostly near the lower swage fittings. That boat had beern rerigged in Tentandreefer Island and the drum of 1 by 19 said Hasselfors, but alas it was not. 5 local charter boats had to be rerigged as a result.
Offline for a few days due helping out in local hospital that is seriously understaffed.
Don't forget that I tend to write DYOR at the bottom of each final version, (Mostly links and film clips). DYOR stands for Do Your Own Reasearch.
If you have a good windlass or pair of arms, don't get fooled by very Iffy, (No film or variance figure), tests, biased magazine articles or funded studies that try to convince boats to buy new gear. Look at the area of foredeck or mounts available for an anchor and select an anchor based on tests comparing deck area, (Effective size), or other anchor fitting limits, vs holding and reset performance. That normally means small heavy anchors are better than lighter larger anchors. Obviously make sure you have a minimum of 3 different anchors for a serious cruise.

My final choice will be the very expensive 3 piece bronze Herrreshoff, stored below decks, (Serious theft potential), my beloved almost new genuine CQR, and a steel Spade that needs restoring. Two 50m all chain rodes with 20m 3 ply final long spliced ends. 4 slightly used Panama canal lines available. New Force 4 Danforth as a spare mounted on deck, so easy to change. 2 extra small dinghy anchors and two 50m of light line, one for posing, (1.5 kg stainless Bruce), and a baby grapnel that I will make myself. Disposable bar fishermans for fishing near wrecks and a folding Mk 1 Herreshoff copy, as a deep water or rocks and heavy weed spare.

NOTE: I can't carry more than 2 lots of 50m of chain in the anchor lockers I will install, but my boat only draws 1.5m. For a circumnavigation or serious cruise, you really should have 80m of top quality chain and a final 20m of heavy 3 ply, as some anchorages will result in a need to anchor in 20m of mixed sea bed when busy. Closer in they are mostly sand or mud, BUT be carefull about coral heads or debris. Make sure you have a good second main ready for instant use if you think one anchor is a reliable safe way of anchoring.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

cruising areas like Scotland... very lacking in terms of anchorages with good holding.

 

[Minerva]

PLEASE READ MY POST AND POINT OUT WHERE I SAID 5 OR 7 TIMES SCOPE, that is probably from another poster. I mentioned 2 to 1 of rope a number of times.

WHEN DEEP WATER ANCHORING YOU ARE OFTEN TRYING TO GET A HOLD WITH A VERY SHORT SCOPE, The Herreshoff and most good fishermans, the Admiralty pattern in particular, will work with just 2 to 1 of rope, or mostly rope rode. That is one reason why you often find them stored aboard offshore yachts cruising areas like Scotland,

No. No you don't.

Is this some sort of convoluted troll?

 

[john_morris_uk]

PLEASE READ MY POST AND POINT OUT WHERE I SAID 5 OR 7 TIMES SCOPE, that is probably from another poster. I mentioned 2 to 1 of rope a number of times.

WHEN DEEP WATER ANCHORING YOU ARE OFTEN TRYING TO GET A HOLD WITH A VERY SHORT SCOPE, The Herreshoff and most good fishermans, the Admiralty pattern in particular, will work with just 2 to 1 of rope, or mostly rope rode. That is one reason why you often find them stored aboard offshore yachts cruising areas like Scotland, (Never been there), Western coast of the USA, Cannery Islands, and a lot of other very interesting places to anchor that can be very lacking in terms of anchorages with good holding. Some of the best spots to fish are seriously problematic in holding terms, which is why I will carry an undersize cheap bar fishermans, as a good disposable.

Most yachts don't carry enough chain to get any of the common anchors to hold in deep water, and I've had to do 2 serious rescues of cruising yachts drifting in towards the cliffs and large rocks in an area where the sea bed was at least 50m of poor to moderate mixed type, including debris like old fish traps. One yacht had suffered a rigging failure in the WAZ, and then wrapped a line around the prop, the other was some twit who was intentionally motoring too close to an area that is nearly all deep water in calm conditions because the passengers liked the view. They had 50m of chain and 100m of rope rode deployed with a copy of a CQR. There was a Danforth in the aft locker, (It might have held as they work on the 3 to 1 scope), but nothing else, no second 50m of chain, no more lines and the failure of the engine, (Blocked primary fuel filter), occured close to the cliff as they wanted to look at some small cave. No times to try joining dock lines.

Using a boat around deep water and Iffy holding off some very interesting beaches without having a short scope general purpose anchor rigged and ready on a second rode is not a safe way of equipping a boat. A grapnel or fishermans would have stopped the drift in one case, but the other boat would have needed a more serious large fishermans, BUT the Herreshoff would have been the best choice by far, as there are enough rocks and weed along the NW coast of Grand Cannery Island, although its performance in mud and sand would have stopped or slowed the drift. Nice earner in both cases, and the port captain impounded both boats, (One got chained to the pontoon), until the bills were paid. In both cases he insisted they purchase more rope and a good grapnel. The other chap asked me what he needed and then purchased a second 80m chain rode and a good used fishermans. I also gave hime a local homemade grapnel to clean and paint. Trying to sail through a WAZ at night was not a good idea, although the Chinese rigging wire didn't help, as it failed before the terminals. Half of the terminals had stated to break stands mostly near the lower swage fittings. That boat had beern rerigged in Tentandreefer Island and the drum of 1 by 19 said Hasselfors, but alas it was not. 5 local charter boats had to be rerigged as a result.

I think you need to read my post. I didn’t say you had claimed you need 5 or 7x. I said you need to stop harping on about so called ‘short scope’ specialised anchors. There aren’t any as far as I’m concerned.
Is it just me that is concerned over your throw away comments about rescuing boats as ‘nice little earners’. I’ve ‘rescued’ or ‘helped’ lots of boats and never charged a penny. Sometimes they give one a bottle of something and sometimes not. Who cares? It’s a rule of the sea that you help others as far as I’m concerned.
You then go off on another rant about metallurgy. It’s more drivel. You make sweeping unsupported statements about Chinese stainless steel in your posts without any evidence to support you. Professional engineers and metallurgists have pointed out how wrong you are yet you persist in trolling your false claims.
I’m also slightly bemused as to why you’ve started a fixation with Herrrshoff anchors when you used to be fixated with CQR anchors.
You also make claims about anchorage conditions in places you admit you haven’t been in. (Be careful as I HAVE sailed and anchored in many of these places. Many others on here also have wide experience so name dropping places to try and support your wild erroneous claims doesn’t work.

On the subject of places, where are the Cannery Islands? If you mean The Canary Islands, who In their right minds anchors anywhere on the North of them which is one if your claims. There’s no shelter from the prevailing N or NE winds. It’s not a seamanlike thing to do yet you mention the challenging anchorages and make sweeping statements about rock and weed everywhere. It’s not true anyway.

 

[NormanS]

Yes, and according to what he claims, he's been almost everywhere else. Maybe he's leaving the best bit to the last.
For some reason, this guy has a fixation for anchoring in deep (depth unspecified) water, thick weed, rocks, and what he calls cobblestones. No wonder he needs a plethora of strange and exotic anchors. Maybe he needs to change his anchoring tactics, rather than his hardware.

 

[Bajansailor]

The worst anchor for shank bending is probably the humble Danforth, which TNLI appears to be quite keen on - I have seen so many here that have been bent like a pretzel with not a lot of force when folk are retrieving them.

Edit later on, after @vyv_cox post #75 below - I should have clarified this to say mostly generic Danforth knock offs, not the genuine Danforth.

 

[Poignard]

You’re probably right. I’ll look at editing .. PM Me with who you think the troll is and we’ll see if the mods /admin agree.

I will do that. And I will delete my post above.

 

[john_morris_uk]

… And I will delete my post above.

I think I already did!

 

[Poignard]

I think I already did!

Saved me the trouble!

 

[vyv_cox]

The worst anchor for shank bending is probably the humble Danforth, which TNLI appears to be quite keen on - I have seen so many here that have been bent like a pretzel with not a lot of force when folk are retrieving them.

It's funny you mention that. Many are made from the cheapest plate available, soft and eminently bendable. According to Peter Smith's website some have strengthened shanks, so I looked at Danforth's website to check.

They use 4130, a steel I know very well, used to be En19. The odd thing is that the '30' is the carbon content, i.e. 0.3% (plus a bit of Cr and Mo) There is a 'rule', which I have never been able to find, that anchor components do not contain more than 0.2%, hence the use of boron in Bisplate and other shank materials.

Strengthening steel is easy by adding carbon but can have consequences. It may be difficult to bend a genuine Danforth shank but it could well be more brittle than is ideal.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It's funny you mention that. Many are made from the cheapest plate available, soft and eminently bendable. According to Peter Smith's website some have strengthened shanks, so I looked at Danforth's website to check.

They use 4130, a steel I know very well, used to be En19. The odd thing is that the '30' is the carbon content, i.e. 0.3% (plus a bit of Cr and Mo) There is a 'rule', which I have never been able to find, that anchor components do not contain more than 0.2%, hence the use of boron in Bisplate and other shank materials.

Strengthening steel is easy by adding carbon but can have consequences. It may be difficult to bend a genuine Danforth shank but it could well be more brittle than is ideal.

We seem to be in danger of sharing actual knowledge rather than trolling wild statements and claims.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

We seem to be in danger of sharing actual knowledge rather than trolling wild statements and claims.

I'll start posting details of all the Anchorages in Scotland if we're moving on to facts and knowledge. Here's one to start with...

Anchorage Hotel Troon | Official Site | Best Rates Direct

and here's another...

The Anchorage Bar

Things might get a bit rough in that second one though.

 

[Bajansailor]

@vyv_cox there are so many knock offs of the genuine Danforth anchor that in retrospect now all (or most ) of the pretzeled Danforths that I have seen are probably cheap Chinese copies.
I do hope that the genuine Danforths are much better.

Changing tack, re @john_morris_uk deleting @Poignard post, is this the same post quoted in #71 above?

 

[john_morris_uk]

@vyv_cox there are so many knock offs of the genuine Danforth anchor that in retrospect now all (or most ) of the pretzeled Danforths that I have seen are probably cheap Chinese copies.
I do hope that the genuine Danforths are much better.

Changing tack, re @john_morris_uk deleting @Poignard post, is this the same post quoted in #71 above?

The possibly contentious bit wasn’t quoted but I’ve deleted the whole post anyway.

 

[vyv_cox]

@vyv_cox there are so many knock offs of the genuine Danforth anchor that in retrospect now all (or most ) of the pretzeled Danforths that I have seen are probably cheap Chinese copies.
I do hope that the genuine Danforths are much better.

They won't be worse, anyway.

Peter Smith is not their greatest fan. Old Generation Anchors: What’s really the problem?

 

[NormanS]

They won't be worse, anyway.

Peter Smith is not their greatest fan. Old Generation Anchors: What’s really the problem?

Of course Peter Smith couldn't be even a teeny weeny bit biased, could he?