dt4134
Well-Known Member
Thanks. That's very handy to know.
The Future of Corporate Sailing
- Thread starter flaming
- Start date
dt4134
Well-Known Member
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That seems to be a ruling that says the law (ie colregs) doesnt matter but private club rules do. Odd but American
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I think the ruling was the law wasn't meant to exclude private rules between contracting parties, i.e the RRS.
That seems to be a ruling that says the law (ie colregs) doesnt matter but private club rules do. Odd but American
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I think the ruling was the law wasn't meant to exclude private rules between contracting parties, i.e the RRS.
fireball
Well-Known Member
If you enter the RTIR and don't know a basic port/starboard then you're a muppet!! I can appreciate the finer points of who has right of way around obstacles and marks is a gray area for many, but the basics should be taken as read - and anyway the OP was complaining about CORPORATE yachts with Pro skippers - if you've got your pro skipper ticket then I'd expect you to know a bit more than just port/starboard!!
It is supposed to be fun - but it is still a race, and races have rules which should be followed - of course, there is nothing stopping 2 skippers deciding to avoid each other without worrying too much about the rules however for the most part they should be obeyed.
I'll say again - if you're a pro skipper with naff crew then you should be thinking ahead and not getting yourself into a situation where you're the giveway boat and can't.... it ain't that difficult!
It is supposed to be fun - but it is still a race, and races have rules which should be followed - of course, there is nothing stopping 2 skippers deciding to avoid each other without worrying too much about the rules however for the most part they should be obeyed.
I'll say again - if you're a pro skipper with naff crew then you should be thinking ahead and not getting yourself into a situation where you're the giveway boat and can't.... it ain't that difficult!
dt4134
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you enter RTI you know that among the 1800 boats will be those who don't know the rules and sometimes don't have a clue! it is part of the fun of going round, if you can't accept this (or the ISC rating system) don't enter.
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To be honest I do avoid it. I've been on the wrong side, drafted in to a cruising mate's boat where the crew didn't even begin to have a clue and the only tactic was to avoid other boats as early as possible.
I found it no fun at all except as maybe source material for a latter-day Keystone Cops go sailing film. That's not to say I got worked up about it, I did my part to make sure the crew got around the island without anyone getting hurt. They enjoyed it, but it wasn't racing.
I enjoy racing seriously and doing so competitively, but I also enjoy cruising and I'd rather go cruising that do the RTIR.
To be honest I think the RTIR is an accident waiting to happen, but if people want to do it it's up to them.
If you enter RTI you know that among the 1800 boats will be those who don't know the rules and sometimes don't have a clue! it is part of the fun of going round, if you can't accept this (or the ISC rating system) don't enter.
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To be honest I do avoid it. I've been on the wrong side, drafted in to a cruising mate's boat where the crew didn't even begin to have a clue and the only tactic was to avoid other boats as early as possible.
I found it no fun at all except as maybe source material for a latter-day Keystone Cops go sailing film. That's not to say I got worked up about it, I did my part to make sure the crew got around the island without anyone getting hurt. They enjoyed it, but it wasn't racing.
I enjoy racing seriously and doing so competitively, but I also enjoy cruising and I'd rather go cruising that do the RTIR.
To be honest I think the RTIR is an accident waiting to happen, but if people want to do it it's up to them.
islandsailor
Well-Known Member
I was not defending the behavior just pointing out that those of us that have done the RTIR a few times (15+), know what to expect and that we accept that this is part of the fun of the day,
Personally I don't take it that seriously and enjoy the day I had two instances of boats on Port when I was on Starboard, one very similar to OP, but you sail on and enjoy getting round. We finished and had a great sense of achievement in doing so.
Ignore the muppets and enjoy the sailing
Personally I don't take it that seriously and enjoy the day I had two instances of boats on Port when I was on Starboard, one very similar to OP, but you sail on and enjoy getting round. We finished and had a great sense of achievement in doing so.
Ignore the muppets and enjoy the sailing
lw395
Well-Known Member
I found I enjoyed racing the RTIR a lot more in my 395 than in my previous smaller boat. You get to start earlier before most of the incompetent combatants. Trouble is there seem to be more wallies in faster boats nowadays!
You do need a measure of give and take, in most races a good helm will spot the badly sailed boats and sail around them, you don't win races by arguing with beginners.
The trouble with the RTIR is that it puts a lot of boats into a small space, sometimes in quite demanding conditions. There may be no space to bail out like in a club race or fleet of 20. The potential for damage and injury is clear to see.
And then you have the factor that many treat it as a picnic, complete with alcoholic refreshment. Quote from RTIR media centre:
Bob Fisher on Rosenn is doing his duty letting us know that he's got St. Catherine's abeam now! Also, at noon the Bosun's Pipe called for 'tot time and the Queen's health was duly toasted and drunk'! The Bosun in this instance is none other than the Rear Commodore of the Royal Navy Sailing Association, Jim Saltonstall MBE who for more than 30 years has been responsible for training many of Britain’s elite sailors to racing success.
Sends the wrong message imho.
You do need a measure of give and take, in most races a good helm will spot the badly sailed boats and sail around them, you don't win races by arguing with beginners.
The trouble with the RTIR is that it puts a lot of boats into a small space, sometimes in quite demanding conditions. There may be no space to bail out like in a club race or fleet of 20. The potential for damage and injury is clear to see.
And then you have the factor that many treat it as a picnic, complete with alcoholic refreshment. Quote from RTIR media centre:
Bob Fisher on Rosenn is doing his duty letting us know that he's got St. Catherine's abeam now! Also, at noon the Bosun's Pipe called for 'tot time and the Queen's health was duly toasted and drunk'! The Bosun in this instance is none other than the Rear Commodore of the Royal Navy Sailing Association, Jim Saltonstall MBE who for more than 30 years has been responsible for training many of Britain’s elite sailors to racing success.
Sends the wrong message imho.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I gave up the RTIR after doing 25 of them. I dread the day when it blows up unexpectedly around the back of the Wight and hundreds of boatfuls of numpties suddenly discover it's not jolly outing after all, and start drowning instead.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
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"3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or any tribunal."
You sign to say you will follow that rule. You explicitly give up your right to take it to court.
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Nope. You just say you won't - that's quite a different matter.
"3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or any tribunal."
You sign to say you will follow that rule. You explicitly give up your right to take it to court.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. You just say you won't - that's quite a different matter.
lw395
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or any tribunal."
You sign to say you will follow that rule. You explicitly give up your right to take it to court.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. You just say you won't - that's quite a different matter.
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And the passengers on the other boats won't have signed any such thing. Perhaps we should raise this with the RYA's legal person?
Now that the rules are more strictly non-contact, I think there is less conflict between RRS and colregs. With both I think the real problem is keeping track of the whole picture in a 20boat situation!
[ QUOTE ]
"3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or any tribunal."
You sign to say you will follow that rule. You explicitly give up your right to take it to court.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. You just say you won't - that's quite a different matter.
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And the passengers on the other boats won't have signed any such thing. Perhaps we should raise this with the RYA's legal person?
Now that the rules are more strictly non-contact, I think there is less conflict between RRS and colregs. With both I think the real problem is keeping track of the whole picture in a 20boat situation!
pteron
Well-Known Member
I've asked RYA legal to comment. They said they'd get back to me today.
pteron
Well-Known Member
RYA legal called me and had some interesting if ultimately inconclusive comments.
Their opinion is that the Courts will take into account the fact that the participants signed up to follow the Racing Rules of Sailing, but the court would not be bound by that contract.
As the representative did not know of any cases coming to court in this country, there is no case law to refer to.
An interesting point that was made was that the RYA might themselves appeal a decision that favoured Colregs over RRS for participants. Also, the US decision whilst not binding, would almost certainly be taken into account.
Less conclusive than I'd thought but also not a complete rejection of the RRS in favour of Colregs as was suggested.
NB my interpretation of a phone conversation, not legal advice!
Their opinion is that the Courts will take into account the fact that the participants signed up to follow the Racing Rules of Sailing, but the court would not be bound by that contract.
As the representative did not know of any cases coming to court in this country, there is no case law to refer to.
An interesting point that was made was that the RYA might themselves appeal a decision that favoured Colregs over RRS for participants. Also, the US decision whilst not binding, would almost certainly be taken into account.
Less conclusive than I'd thought but also not a complete rejection of the RRS in favour of Colregs as was suggested.
NB my interpretation of a phone conversation, not legal advice!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
An interesting point that was made was that the RYA might themselves appeal a decision that favoured Colregs over RRS for participants. Also, the US decision whilst not binding, would almost certainly be taken into account.
[/ QUOTE ]
One important difference is that any yacht at any time can opt out of the racing rules, simply by not racing any more. Nobody can opt out of the IRPCS. Well, apart for ferries, fishing boats and submarines, of course ...
An interesting point that was made was that the RYA might themselves appeal a decision that favoured Colregs over RRS for participants. Also, the US decision whilst not binding, would almost certainly be taken into account.
[/ QUOTE ]
One important difference is that any yacht at any time can opt out of the racing rules, simply by not racing any more. Nobody can opt out of the IRPCS. Well, apart for ferries, fishing boats and submarines, of course ...
