The case against leading lines aft.

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Sybarite

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From another source (AAC)

Why I dislike leading lines aft summary:
1) Additional cost of longer lines, fairleads and larger winches required for increased loads
2) Lines running along deck makes footing more treacherous
3) Increased friction on halyards inhibits sail lowering ability
4) Single line reefing doesn’t produce a good reef
5) Excessive line clutter in the cockpit causes snags, knots and high potential for tripping
6) Doesn’t afford the opportunity to inspect your rigging at the mast regularly
7) Doesn’t prepare you for going forward for when the **** hits the fan. Remember: practice makes perfect

Add to that granny bars and a box to hold the tail ends and I tend to agree.

Do you?
 
1) Longer lines yes - increased loads - no
2) Lines are running along the coach roof - I don't tend to walk up there. Some vessels have them in a tunnel and therefore they're covered.
3) Not that I've found - anyway, you can have someone in the cockpit feeding out the line (like the helm) and one at the mast bringing the sail down.
4) Eh?
5) But it's in the safest location - I'd rather have a buggers muddle in the cockpit than at the mast ...
6) You can go forward to inspect rigging anywhen you like ... single line reefing doesn't prevent that.
7) Depends, but there is a small point there.

I can put in or shake out a reef from the cockpit whenever I like - baring any problems it's arguably safer than having to go forward and do it at the mast.
You could also argue that because it is so easy to put a reef in, you're more likely to do so.
 
The cockpit is a much safer place to work. The less time spent on deck, the less the risk of falling over.

On my little 21-footer I had 38 control lines permanently rigged, all led to the cockpit. And that doesn't include the four lines to control the angle of the solar panel!

For sail handling I only had to leave the cockpit for few operations: dealing with the tack of the main during reefing, setting the code 0 on the bowsprit, and changing the jib sheet when putting a slab reef in the jib.

I'd lead all the control lines into the cabin if it made sense!
 
What if alone on watch?

I (or rather we) mostly sail 2-handed. When 2-handed we've a fixed policy that if the on-watch person needs to leave the cockpit to go on deck while the other is off-watch then the off-watch person must be woken up.

Thus with reefing lines led to the cockpit we can, and do, reef and unreef without waking the other. With lines at the mast we couldn't, and so would either get even less sleep or put off putting in or shaking out reefs until watch change-over, both of which are undesirable.
 
I am puzzled by boats with slab reefing at the mast and the halyard led aft.

I must be missing something, because when I take a reef I very seldom drop the halyard by just the right amount. Is the idea that one person, in the cockpit, eases the halyard whilst a second person, at the mast, hauls down the leech pendant and hooks the luff cringle over the ram's horn so that the cockpit person can hoist away again?

What happens if you are single handed?

I ask because I am selling my big boat, which has everything at the mast, and downsizing - I just looked at a boat that I like but which has this arrangement.

Could somebody explain this to me?
 
Sybarite said:
From another source (AAC)

Why I dislike leading lines aft summary:
1) Additional cost of longer lines, fairleads and larger winches required for increased loads
2) Lines running along deck makes footing more treacherous
3) Increased friction on halyards inhibits sail lowering ability
4) Single line reefing doesn’t produce a good reef
5) Excessive line clutter in the cockpit causes snags, knots and high potential for tripping
6) Doesn’t afford the opportunity to inspect your rigging at the mast regularly
7) Doesn’t prepare you for going forward for when the **** hits the fan. Remember: practice makes perfect

Add to that granny bars and a box to hold the tail ends and I tend to agree.

Do you?
Click to expand...

Lines only marginally longer, only need a winch for the main halyard.
Lines run over coach roof, not side decks.
I can sometimes drop my main with the wind behind, so no friction problems.
Single line reeling does produce a good reef, and if executed properly doesn't need winching.
Good line management, like coiling them up, doesn't cause any clutter in the cockpit. Only my jib sheets are loose in the cockpit.
How often do you need to inspect your rigging at the mast?
I quite often go forward when I'm sailing as I can steer using a remote control on the auto helm, so I can get plenty of practice.
 
Sounds like somebody who has never tried it and is trying to justify his prejudice. I can think of good arguments against every point, except for No.6, which is preposterous. We have used single line reefing and every line back to the cockpit for 20 years, never had a moment of regret.
 
I have no problems with halliards and reefing at the mast: I usually regard it as easier. Although in theory leading lines aft does not increase loading on lines, in practice friction does usually seriously increase the effort required to reef or pull up the halliard.

My present boat has lines aft, single line reefing, etc. I would not go to the trouble of changing it, but if everything was at the mast I'd be equally happy.
 
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Sounds like the opinion of an armchair old school sailor who has never tried a properly set up system, I've sailed many boats of both types, the led to cockpit option has many benefits and none of the downsides in the list.

Possibly badly set up or badly managed could be a problem, but when it comes to reefing there's no comparison. The time it takes with a single mast winch under the boom adds significant risks when it's really rough as you need spare hands to winch, hold winch handle and operate jammers, whilst also having to coil and tie up the loose end before you can head back, and hang on.

What was the source? I didn't recognise the abbreviation?
 
NormanS said:
In mast furling removes all these problems.
Click to expand...
That's a whole new bag of worms to discuss, personally I've had bad experiences with in mast and they keep the weight up the mast so give you less righting moment than a boom reef system when you most need it. For general gentle light wind cruising set up well they are probably OK and they have improved from the early 1985 version I sailed with on a Rival 38.
 
Neil_Y said:
That's a whole new bag of worms to discuss, personally I've had bad experiences with in mast and they keep the weight up the mast so give you less righting moment than a boom reef system when you most need it. For general gentle light wind cruising set up well they are probably OK and they have improved from the early 1985 version I sailed with on a Rival 38.
Click to expand...

Yes, I suspect that as in most things, that improvements have been made in the last 28 years.
 
There are some technical problems to be overcome with lines aft, but with a well sorted out system there is no contest. HRs have tended to stop providing aft lines at 36' and above. This overcomes the single disadvantage of the system, which has not been mentioned, which is that the necessary gaps in the windshield can allow seawater in when a wave comes over the deck. This only rarely occurs, and we have got used to tucking sponges in when close-reaching at around 8kn, when it is most likely. (You do all have windscreens, don't you?)

In the middle of the night, with my crew sleeping below, I can reef from my cockpit on my own in a couple of minutes, without the discomfort and risk of clambering around outside, clipped on, of course. Why should anyone want to go back to mast reefing?
 
I have everything at the mast and granny bars for no other reason than the boat came that way. I have sailed plenty of yachts with lines led aft. Both systems are just as good but I prefer my cockpit shelf to be free of lines, so I guess I am a mast man on that criteria alone. As for at mast mainsail slab reefing times, I can give any at cockpit single line slab reefing a run for their money - no probs. :):p
 
As regards speed of tucking a reef in, I honestly don't think there has been any improvement on the Appledore system, perfected about a century ago. On my gaff cutter with a 450 sq ft mainsail you just go to the mast, ease the throat halyard, stick the handle in and wind; job done, on any point of sailing.
 
Minn said:
As regards speed of tucking a reef in, I honestly don't think there has been any improvement on the Appledore system, perfected about a century ago. On my gaff cutter with a 450 sq ft mainsail you just go to the mast, ease the throat halyard, stick the handle in and wind; job done, on any point of sailing.
Click to expand...

They tried to copy that for bermudan rigs in the 60s and 70s, and converting such systems to slab reefs instead is so popular that Barton make a special kit for doing it :)

It works well on a gaff rig because of the more vertical leech. The lacing or hoops at the luff also mean the sail can slide down the mast wherever the wind is coming from.

I'm used to a gaff and mast hoops on Kindred Spirit (though she has slab reefing rather than roller), and now on Ariam with the sail pinned into a track in an aluminium mast I do miss the ability to hoist or lower the sail on any course.

Pete
 
Sybarite said:
From another source (AAC)

Why I dislike leading lines aft summary:
1) Additional cost of longer lines, fairleads and larger winches required for increased loads
2) Lines running along deck makes footing more treacherous
3) Increased friction on halyards inhibits sail lowering ability
4) Single line reefing doesn’t produce a good reef
5) Excessive line clutter in the cockpit causes snags, knots and high potential for tripping
6) Doesn’t afford the opportunity to inspect your rigging at the mast regularly
7) Doesn’t prepare you for going forward for when the **** hits the fan. Remember: practice makes perfect

Add to that granny bars and a box to hold the tail ends and I tend to agree.

Do you?
Click to expand...

Agree wholeheartedly
 
Whatever we say here its down to personal preference. Here is my two penny worth (and I do sail a cat now so I appreciate the platform is more stable)

1. All lines led aft works is that is the case. There is no point in having the reefing lines led aft and then still having to go to the mast to hook the cringle on
2. Single line reefing is the invention of the devil. If its one long line it never really seems to tightn up and anything with blocks moving in the boom where I cant get to is bound to end in tears at the wrong moment
3. The alternative, of having one line for the reef and one to haul down the cringle doubles the number of lines, so a lot of blocks and excess cordage
4. My personal experience of in mast mainsail reefing (this was even worse as a retrofit, vertically battened) is great when it all works, which never seemed to be when I really needed it to.
5. I like to go to the mast to make sure everything is ok, its amazing how many times I have spotted a potential problem which I would have missed from the helm
 
Minn said:
I am puzzled by boats with slab reefing at the mast and the halyard led aft.

I must be missing something, because when I take a reef I very seldom drop the halyard by just the right amount.
Click to expand...

That's because you haven't marked the halyard at the reef positions. Proper job is to stich a whipping on, but waterproof marker pen is an acceptable substitute.
 
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