The case against leading lines aft.

[Daydream believer]

I think a lot has to do with what is acceptable
I certainly believe in mast furling as rubbish. But if you do not mind sails setting like a sack then you will argue in favour
One post likes the roller boom system. I had that & thought it ok but if you did not keep correct tension on the clew ( which meant trying to control the end of a flogging boom) the sail set with vertical creases . If you do not mind that then ok
Some will prefer to go forward to adjust sails but i cannot see how that is quicker or safer than reefing from the cockpit.
It is ok for the day sailer in 15 kts but see how they feel about going forward on 40 kts. The simple act of getting on to the side deck is a struggle. However, if your winches undersized, ropes old & knackered, blocks salted up, lines poorly laid out then perhaps they have to go forward. If they do not know how to set it up or just try to adapt poor systems they. Will never get it right
As an example of rigging layouts look at some high performance dinghies. The top ones will have fantastic layouts with the top kit. Those with poorer set up & fittings of a lower standard will not ( yes the odd exemption) be able to compete. Lots of dinghy sailors buy new dinghies & send them straight to professional dinghy riggers. The difference is amazing.
I had a Stella & thought i had it well rigged but when i saw one rigged by Rig Magic ( from the Ipswich area i think) i realised i was wrong.
If what you have works for you then great. But once you see the best then you may not feel so confident

 

[johnalison]

Whatever we say here its down to personal preference. Here is my two penny worth (and I do sail a cat now so I appreciate the platform is more stable)

1. All lines led aft works is that is the case. There is no point in having the reefing lines led aft and then still having to go to the mast to hook the cringle on
2. Single line reefing is the invention of the devil. If its one long line it never really seems to tightn up and anything with blocks moving in the boom where I cant get to is bound to end in tears at the wrong moment
3. The alternative, of having one line for the reef and one to haul down the cringle doubles the number of lines, so a lot of blocks and excess cordage
4. My personal experience of in mast mainsail reefing (this was even worse as a retrofit, vertically battened) is great when it all works, which never seemed to be when I really needed it to.
5. I like to go to the mast to make sure everything is ok, its amazing how many times I have spotted a potential problem which I would have missed from the helm

1. This was the system we had on our Sadler 29. For a crew of 2, it was ideal, with one person dealing with the halyard and reefing lines, and the other assisting and briefly popping up to the mast to deal with the tack. Single line is even better, but the Sadler set-up was much better than nothing.
2. We've managed for 14 years with ours and very seldom cry about it. The reef is as tight as I care to winch it.
3. I've not used this, but on a larger boat where it was needed, space for the lines should be no problem.
4. I have only limited experience of in-mast reefing but have generally been impressed with well-battened sails and most people seem to have little trouble so long as they use the system properly. I'm not wildly in favour, but they have advantages for older crews. Those of us who cruise in May & June will know what I mean.
5. I can't remember missing a problem at the mast in the last forty-odd years. Maybe I maintain them better.

 

[Houleaux]

I have all lines led back to the cockpit and single line reefing for the first two reefs (I have to go to the mast to hook the tack on for the third, whilst the line to the clew is led aft).

I don't have any problems putting reefs in, but shaking them out can be a bit of a pain. I have to pull the lines through at the end of the boom to create slack before raising the sail and, whilst I'm sure my setup could be improved upon, I've sailed plenty of other boats where the same is true.

There are advantages of leading lines aft and I don't intend to change my set up but sailing a boat with lines controlled at the mast can be an absolute joy! The absence of added friction from all those extra blocks etc. makes raising, lowering and reefing the main so quick and easy.

If you've tried handling all lines at the mast and prefer your lines led aft, I'm not about to argue with you. But if you haven't (or haven't recently!), you may be amazed at just how easy it is when all lines are handled at the mast.

 

[JimC]

... I don't have any problems putting reefs in, but shaking them out can be a bit of a pain. I have to pull the lines through at the end of the boom to create slack before raising the sail...

I sometimes have a similar experience with the single line system on my Hunter, but at least it's only happening when you're shaking out the reefs and have no stress and plenty of time.

 

[Houleaux]

I sometimes have a similar experience with the single line system on my Hunter, but at least it's only happening when you're shaking out the reefs and have no stress and plenty of time.

That's true of course. Still a pain though!

 

[chrisedwards]

..........,except the Chinese system perfected about two millenia ago,............

As regards speed of tucking a reef in, I honestly don't think there has been any improvement on the Appledore system, perfected about a century ago. On my gaff cutter with a 450 sq ft mainsail you just go to the mast, ease the throat halyard, stick the handle in and wind; job done, on any point of sailing.

 

[SeamanStaines]

I have all lines led back to the cockpit and single line reefing for the first two reefs (I have to go to the mast to hook the tack on for the third, whilst the line to the clew is led aft).

I think I would be more inclined to go to the mast to rig the first reef and have the third set for single line on the basis that its not too windy when you are rigging the first, but you maybe really dont want to go forward to rig the third. I have considered setting ours up so that the third reef can go in without going to the mast, but since I would usually be rigging the storm jib at that stage, I need to go up there anyway. Depends if you have a storm jib, or if you are going to rely on a well reefed genoa.

As an aside (I know this is thread drift, sorry). I also carry a working jib as well as the genoa. If it looks like we are going to see serious winds, and I am going to have to work upwind I will change the genoa for the working as it sets so much better, and more importantly, can be furled to a small size and still work.

 

[BelleSerene]

1) Additional cost of (a) longer lines, fairleads and (b) larger winches required for increased loads - (a): this is a ha'penny in the pound of your capital expenditure on the boat. (b): not true: the load of the sail bearing the wind puts the friction forces in the shade (sorry).

2) Lines running along deck makes footing more treacherous - When you trip is when you have to move. When the lines run aft you don't. Soby running the lines to where you are, rather than running yourself to the lines, you trip less.

3) Increased friction on halyards inhibits sail lowering ability - true. Way offset by the ease and safety benefits of lines led aft, though.

4) Single line reefing doesn’t produce a good reef - A good reason not to single-line reef. So double-line reef and run 'em aft.

5) Excessive line clutter in the cockpit causes snags, knots and high potential for tripping - You're only exposed to trip risk when you have to go up on deck. Running lines aft removes the great majority of this danger.

6) Doesn’t afford the opportunity to inspect your rigging at the mast regularly - that's a great reason for saving yourself the cost of the halyard running down the mast. Save yourself the cash, leave the end of the halyard at the masthead, and climb the mast to haul the main up. Then you get the opportunity you've always known you need, to inspect the sheaves at the masthead.

7) Doesn’t prepare you for going forward for when the **** hits the fan. Remember: practice makes perfect - See (6) above.

Cute debating points, Sybarite, but they really don't stand to reason IMHO.

 

[dunedin]

Enjoy your rope work at the mast. Assume you also enjoy leather driving gloves, hat and goggles for the car ;-)

BelleSerene sums it up perfectly - only would add that whatever the system, make sure to use Silicone spray on the sail slides.

 

[Houleaux]

I think I would be more inclined to go to the mast to rig the first reef and have the third set for single line on the basis that its not too windy when you are rigging the first, but you maybe really dont want to go forward to rig the third. I have considered setting ours up so that the third reef can go in without going to the mast, but since I would usually be rigging the storm jib at that stage, I need to go up there anyway. Depends if you have a storm jib, or if you are going to rely on a well reefed genoa.

As an aside (I know this is thread drift, sorry). I also carry a working jib as well as the genoa. If it looks like we are going to see serious winds, and I am going to have to work upwind I will change the genoa for the working as it sets so much better, and more importantly, can be furled to a small size and still work.

I've pondered the first or third reef at the mast question a few times myself. I'm comfortable with going to the mast though (plenty of hand holds) so haven't (yet) changed the set up I inherited.

I also have a working jib as well as the genoa and agree with you 100%. The smaller sail totally transforms sailing in stronger winds. Worth every penny!

 

[prv]

I think I would be more inclined to go to the mast to rig the first reef and have the third set for single line

The usual single-line system has a block that slides the length of the boom attached to the tack pendant, so you can't pull down a bigger reef than the length of your boom. That's the reason third reefs generally don't use the system, it's not just collective thoughtlessness.

Pete

 

[SeamanStaines]

The usual single-line system has a block that slides the length of the boom attached to the tack pendant, so you can't pull down a bigger reef than the length of your boom. That's the reason third reefs generally don't use the system, it's not just collective thoughtlessness.

Ahhh. the thought process had not gone that far. I was going to do it with two lines anyway as I have had a very bad experience with the block jamming in the boom on another boat (it was a retrofit I did myself so was probably doomed!) where the boom was not really big enough

 

[Simondjuk]

I have a cunningham rigged permanently and led aft. If the weather looks like being light, it stays where it is. If it looks like it might turn into a good blow, I swap it onto the third reef tack spectacle before setting out. It allows me to put in the deepest reef, which is beyond the scope of single line reefing, without going forward. Having a cunningham is a good thing too.

 

[stav]

I have never used single line reefing but I like my lines at the mast. But then I am also keen on designs of a boat that give a steady platform to work on. The current set up has some at mast and some in cockpit. Topping lift, kicker and reefing lines in cockpit with halyard at the mast.

Ease kicker and sheet, tighten topping lift, pop to mast lower halyard pop on reefing eye, tension halyard. Back aft to sort out other lines. Simple, reduced mess in the cockpit, eminently suitable for single handing which is what I mostly do even with a young family on board I am basically sailing single handed.

The boat was fitted with a vertical roller main which I removed as it needed repairing. A boat next to me had his inmast repaired twice in 4 years as it came loose at the top of the mast.

I also do not have genoa roller reefing as I can not afford it, but would not have just a roller genoa and would want an inner stay that could take a light genoa, No3 and a storm jib. As for people who think we are driving with our goggles on and leather gloves. Well no sorry perhaps we like as good a sail shape as we can achieve and need simple equipment so we can maintain it our selves.

Cannot imagine checking the rigging whilst going forward to reef though!

 

[Javelin]

It all comes down to planning, layout and systems that work.
Halyards and control lines ran aft badly is far worse than just having them at the mast.
However given an effective and efficient layout it's faster and much safer.

Also I find many people use oversize ropes.
Downsizing your ropes will reduce the friction considerably reducing effort and turning a sluggish system into a fast efficient one.
The modern dyneema ropes are very strong and durable.
Think about using 4 or 5mm dyneema for parts of the rope system that you wont actually touch and then taper or join them to a larger rope at the handling, clutch, winch end.
It can also work out cheaper especially when you factor in smaller high load blocks.

 

[Kukri]

I think a lot has to do with what is acceptable
I certainly believe in mast furling as rubbish. But if you do not mind sails setting like a sack then you will argue in favour
One post likes the roller boom system. I had that & thought it ok but if you did not keep correct tension on the clew ( which meant trying to control the end of a flogging boom) the sail set with vertical creases . If you do not mind that then ok
Some will prefer to go forward to adjust sails but i cannot see how that is quicker or safer than reefing from the cockpit.
It is ok for the day sailer in 15 kts but see how they feel about going forward on 40 kts. The simple act of getting on to the side deck is a struggle. However, if your winches undersized, ropes old & knackered, blocks salted up, lines poorly laid out then perhaps they have to go forward. If they do not know how to set it up or just try to adapt poor systems they. Will never get it right
As an example of rigging layouts look at some high performance dinghies. The top ones will have fantastic layouts with the top kit. Those with poorer set up & fittings of a lower standard will not ( yes the odd exemption) be able to compete. Lots of dinghy sailors buy new dinghies & send them straight to professional dinghy riggers. The difference is amazing.
I had a Stella & thought i had it well rigged but when i saw one rigged by Rig Magic ( from the Ipswich area i think) i realised i was wrong.
If what you have works for you then great. But once you see the best then you may not feel so confident

Excellent post but you misunderstood my point about the old roller boom system - my point was just that it is simple and quick - on a gaff cutter. Does not work at all well with modern sails and I would not recommend it. Second the recommendation of Rig Magic and I entirely agree that salted up blocks and a poor layout are a disaster

 

[Kukri]

It all comes down to planning, layout and systems that work.
Halyards and control lines ran aft badly is far worse than just having them at the mast.
However given an effective and efficient layout it's faster and much safer.

Also I find many people use oversize ropes.
Downsizing your ropes will reduce the friction considerably reducing effort and turning a sluggish system into a fast efficient one.
The modern dyneema ropes are very strong and durable.
Think about using 4 or 5mm dyneema for parts of the rope system that you wont actually touch and then taper or join them to a larger rope at the handling, clutch, winch end.
It can also work out cheaper especially when you factor in smaller high load blocks.

Excellent point - all modern racing dinghies use small Dyneema spliced into something that fits your hand where needed. Larger boats should do the same.

 

[Sybarite]

1) Additional cost of (a) longer lines, fairleads and (b) larger winches required for increased loads - (a): this is a ha'penny in the pound of your capital expenditure on the boat. (b): not true: the load of the sail bearing the wind puts the friction forces in the shade (sorry).

2) Lines running along deck makes footing more treacherous - When you trip is when you have to move. When the lines run aft you don't. Soby running the lines to where you are, rather than running yourself to the lines, you trip less.

3) Increased friction on halyards inhibits sail lowering ability - true. Way offset by the ease and safety benefits of lines led aft, though.

4) Single line reefing doesn’t produce a good reef - A good reason not to single-line reef. So double-line reef and run 'em aft.

5) Excessive line clutter in the cockpit causes snags, knots and high potential for tripping - You're only exposed to trip risk when you have to go up on deck. Running lines aft removes the great majority of this danger.

6) Doesn’t afford the opportunity to inspect your rigging at the mast regularly - that's a great reason for saving yourself the cost of the halyard running down the mast. Save yourself the cash, leave the end of the halyard at the masthead, and climb the mast to haul the main up. Then you get the opportunity you've always known you need, to inspect the sheaves at the masthead.

7) Doesn’t prepare you for going forward for when the **** hits the fan. Remember: practice makes perfect - See (6) above.

Cute debating points, Sybarite, but they really don't stand to reason IMHO.

I have simply quoted from another source. I tend to agree though as I have to go to the mast anyway to guide the sliders to the lower track and to hook the cringles. The reefing winch is on the mast under the boom. And even when I have furled the sail, I am normally on the cabin roof to tidy up the sail.

 

[Sybarite]

Topping lift, !

I'm changing mine to a heavier line so that it can act as an emergency halliard if necessary.

 

[Javelin]

Heavier line??

Don't over specify as its a waste of money.

for example using Marlow ropes...

Normal braid...............Doublebraid.........Excel Elite90...........Excel D12
6mm = 901kg..........6mm = 1390kg........4mm = 1356kg.......2.5mm = 1005kg
8mm = 1740kg.........8mm = 2560kg........5mm = 1656kg.......3mm = 1507kg
10mm = 2850kg........10mm = 3690kg.......6mm = 2375kg.......5mm = 3200kg
12mm = 4460kg........12mm = 4760kg..................................7mm = 7510kg !!!
14mm = 5460kg........14mm = 6050kg

The range is huge.
Just because you've always used braid on braid does not mean you should continue to do so, certainly not recently as these new ropes are awesome.

ooh just found the D12 Max 90 - got to get some of this.
3mm - 1741kg
5mm - 3696kg
7mm - 8674kg