Terrible news from Clipper

[Uricanejack]

The focus of this thread has, quite rightly, centred on the attributes or otherwise of the Clipper organisation & race, rather than on Simon and his terrible misfortune.

That said, since Simon embarked on his journey, I – and others – have enjoyed following his blog, which offers (often cheery) insight into participation in the race. For anybody interested in some lighter reading, it can be found here.

TJ.

I looked at the Link and went right back to his first post about getting ready. I didn't know him. I didn't know his name when I first saw and posted on this thread. This being one of the most popular sailing forums I am sure some people who read this forum probably did.

I felt deeply saddened to hear of the loss of another anonymous life. His family friends devastated, there lives will never be the same gain. It shouldn't have happened.

I don't read blogs.
But I thought I would check it out. I only read the first blog post. The excitement of someone setting of on an adventure. He had been planning for since 2014. Now a person with a name. He was describing his past experience as a dingy sailor, his training, and being invited to be a cox.
I stopped there. Something about knowing the ending of the story. It made me sadder. And much? well the less said about what I'm thinking now the better
I may read some more later.

When you pay any sum of money to any organisation to take you on a sailing adventure, Lesson, just a day trip. Or a round the world race. You put your trust and faith that they will look after you. He should have come home.
Simon trusted Clipper.

 

[dunedin]

.... since Simon embarked on his journey, I – and others – have enjoyed following his blog, which offers (often cheery) insight into participation in the race. For anybody interested in some lighter reading, it can be found here.

This blog makes clear that Simon was the person that would have had to take charge if the skipper had gone overboard, therefore one of the most experienced on board (avoiding the term deputy skipper as not clear from this if it is a formal role, or just assigned responsibility). Certainly not an inexperienced yachtsman. But as other posts suggest, the senior crew sometimes took on more challenging tasks, which may or may not have applied here. Again will wait more facts.

 

[bitbaltic]

My experience of sailing witha few people who've done it is that they turned out to be one trick ponies.

I’ve sailed (several times) with two clipper professionals (one paying crew who later turned pro and now handles much of the training, and one full-time pro RTW skipper from a few races back). I would trust both with my life anywhere in the ocean without s moment’s thought.

I have also sailed long distances offshore (RORC including Fastnet) with two clipper circumnavigators who did not subsequently leverage it to become professional. They were supremely limited in all but specific areas (cooking and sail trim respectively) and I would not sail any boat with either of them again. The principal reason for that was that neither recognised the limit of their abilities, despite making unequivocal errors of navigation and boat handling whilst offshore. One trick ponies indeed- and fundamentally dangerous because of the gap between perceived and actual skills.

 

[mainsail1]

The focus of this thread has, quite rightly, centred on the attributes or otherwise of the Clipper organisation & race, rather than on Simon and his terrible misfortune.

That said, since Simon embarked on his journey, I – and others – have enjoyed following his blog, which offers (often cheery) insight into participation in the race. For anybody interested in some lighter reading, it can be found here.

TJ.

Thanks for the link.
A fantastic read from a man with a great spirit.
It confirmed to me why I have never ever wanted to do such a race.

 

[Astrolabe]

What jumped out at me when I read the initial report was Clipper obviously going into damage control and posting about all the training the crew receive, and the fact that the victim has been part of their Coxswain program. It seemed inappropriate to me.

 

[john_morris_uk]

4 weeks of training, very short for those kind of vessels and that kind of sailing

May we know how much sailing you’ve done on large boats with hank on headsails? And how much ocean sailing you’ve done? And have you ever been in the Southern Ocean?

Just so we can determine how informed your throw away remark is....

 

[lpdsn]

I’ve sailed (several times) with two clipper professionals (one paying crew who later turned pro and now handles much of the training, and one full-time pro RTW skipper from a few races back). I would trust both with my life anywhere in the ocean without s moment’s thought.

I have also sailed long distances offshore (RORC including Fastnet) with two clipper circumnavigators who did not subsequently leverage it to become professional. They were supremely limited in all but specific areas (cooking and sail trim respectively) and I would not sail any boat with either of them again. The principal reason for that was that neither recognised the limit of their abilities, despite making unequivocal errors of navigation and boat handling whilst offshore. One trick ponies indeed- and fundamentally dangerous because of the gap between perceived and actual skills.

I think we're agreeing. Obviously the professional aboard each boat will have to have substantial skills and experience even to get that far and completing the circumnavigation will only serve to increase that.

I've raced with four ex-crew on various boats, I think, trying to do a quick count. I've certainly not encountered the arrogance you seem to have suffered from, but a few situations arose from an inappropriate and counter-productive show of initiative, which was an issue that I think illustrated the lack of all-round experience. It was simply a matter of mentally re-adjusting to treat them more as less-experienced rather than senior crew.

 

[rotrax]

May we know how much sailing you’ve done on large boats with hank on headsails? And how much ocean sailing you’ve done? And have you ever been in the Southern Ocean?

Just so we can determine how informed your throw away remark is....

Well said.

 

[RobF]

So here's an interesting quote from the final blog (written subsequent to his death).

Dear Friends,

We are heartbroken to have to tell you that Simon has had an accident this morning at approximately 10 am our time. We were informed that he was changing a sail at the front of the yacht and was swept overboard. It would appear that his safety harness failed although he was tied on as he should have been

In the absence of any other meaningful information at the moment, I would suggest that to blame Clipper for a safety harness failure is a bit unfair. I would also suggest that there are a lot of people on here who like to jump to conclusions based on minimal reading of the various statements which have been released about this incident.

I suggest that, as a YM, he would have known that there was an element of risk in the sport that he was taking. Accidents happen in high risk sport (and offshore yacht racing is deemed by underwriters to be high risk). This was not a blind faith in Clipper, the yacht and the yacht's safety equipment, I suspect he knew the risk and was prepared to take it. I also accept there are others on this forum who know the risk of offshore racing and choose not to take it. Each to their own.

 

[STOL71]

What jumped out at me when I read the initial report was Clipper obviously going into damage control and posting about all the training the crew receive, and the fact that the victim has been part of their Coxswain program. It seemed inappropriate to me.

You may add: managing paid crew is easy, managing volunteer crew is harder, managing paying crew and their expectations is even harder.

 

[dslittle]

With 1 death and 2 medevac due to injuries, plus loss of boat in this race. Only on leg 3

Last race 2 deaths.

How long will it be able to carry On?

In a previous post it was mentioned that to minimise risk, it would be safer to remain in port.

During the timescale of these accidents, I wonder how many people have died in Marinas - statistically the most dangerous place to be in a boat. I have never seen a thread demanding that Marinas get closed down due to an accidental death.

Oh and precluding the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' argument another sad loss
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.be...eartbreak-belfast-man-found-dead-13903581.amp

 

[rotrax]

In a previous post it was mentioned that to minimise risk, it would be safer to remain in port.

During the timescale of these accidents, I wonder how many people have died in Marinas - statistically the most dangerous place to be in a boat. I have never seen a thread demanding that Marinas get closed down due to an accidental death.

Oh and precluding the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' argument another sad loss
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.be...eartbreak-belfast-man-found-dead-13903581.amp

Quite correct. Sailing, by its very nature of taking place in unforgiving places often far from help, is dangerous.

Even in situations like marina pontoons and docks.

The previous poster is known to me personally. I am sure he wont mind me telling you that he was recovering from a serious hand injury when I first met him, caused when picking up a mooring.

There but for the grace of God...............................

 

[NormanS]

May we know how much sailing you’ve done on large boats with hank on headsails? And how much ocean sailing you’ve done? And have you ever been in the Southern Ocean?

Just so we can determine how informed your throw away remark is....

I think that's a very unfair and elitist attitude. You don't have to go in a rocket to the moon to appreciate that there is some danger involved. I know you are a moderator on the forum, but if it is now moderatorial policy that one cannot comment on anything that you have not actually done, it will make for some very thin threads.

 

[alant]

I think that's a very unfair and elitist attitude. You don't have to go in a rocket to the moon to appreciate that there is some danger involved. I know you are a moderator on the forum, but if it is now moderatorial policy that one cannot comment on anything that you have not actually done, it will make for some very thin threads.

That's a no then.

 

[rotrax]

I think that's a very unfair and elitist attitude. You don't have to go in a rocket to the moon to appreciate that there is some danger involved. I know you are a moderator on the forum, but if it is now moderatorial policy that one cannot comment on anything that you have not actually done, it will make for some very thin threads.

True knowlege is the product of direct experience.

It is possible to have knowlege about a subject, from reading and media, but unless that is backed up by direct experience at the coalface it must, by its very nature, be flawed.

So, if you have not had experience of big powerful sail boats with hank on headsails and large crews in the Southern Ocean, any statements made by you must be absorbed with this in mind.

I have not, so I dont post advice or opinion on what I have no experience of.

I have made the odd " what if " speculation from time to time though.

Simples...................................

 

[STOL71]

4 weeks of training, very short for those kind of vessels and that kind of sailing

May we know how much sailing you’ve done on large boats with hank on headsails? And how much ocean sailing you’ve done? And have you ever been in the Southern Ocean?

Just so we can determine how informed your throw away remark is....

I happen to know that Shamaya has been across the Atlantic and back at least once and he's a seasoned off-shore racer as skipper.
That doesn't validate his point more, but it invalidates your comment, John_Morris_UK.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

True knowlege is the product of direct experience.

It is possible to have knowlege about a subject, from reading and media, but unless that is backed up by direct experience at the coalface it must, by its very nature, be flawed.

So, if you have not had experience of big powerful sail boats with hank on headsails and large crews in the Southern Ocean, any statements made by you must be absorbed with this in mind.

I have not, so I dont post advice or opinion on what I have no experience of.

I have made the odd " what if " speculation from time to time though.

Simples...................................

You are very wrong about the meaning of knowledge if you think lack of experience on a matter makes it flawed knowledge. In fact direct experience can be a blocker to improving knowledge because paradigms become truisms that block progress. Very often people who have no experience of a matter can be the most innotive. What you are proposing is limiting behaviour.

 

[Triassic]

In a previous post it was mentioned that to minimise risk, it would be safer to remain in port.

During the timescale of these accidents, I wonder how many people have died in Marinas - statistically the most dangerous place to be in a boat. I have never seen a thread demanding that Marinas get closed down due to an accidental death.

Statistics always have to be taken in context. A good friend of mine who is now ex MOD was explaining to me that the "safest" time statistically for the various active members of the forces was during conflict. When they were in theatre their lives and activities were far more closely controlled where during their down time the young men (and women no doubt) were doing what young men do best, exposing themselves to all sorts of dodgy activities such as motorcycling/driving, climbing, adventure sports generally, and of course drinking....... They lost far more personnel to these activities than they did to action.

 

[rotrax]

You are very wrong about the meaning of knowledge if you think lack of experience on a matter makes it flawed knowledge. In fact direct experience can be a blocker to improving knowledge because paradigms become truisms that block progress. Very often people who have no experience of a matter can be the most innotive. What you are proposing is limiting behaviour.

And of course, and I am sure you will be the first to agree, the reverse can be true.

We are talking about physical activity on a vessel in interesting conditions in a dangerous place. The envioroment is changing by the second.

No amount of fireside reading or media absorbtion can approach being there and doing it. Nor can less challenging sailing on smaller boats.

IMHO, of course.

We are not talking about experience blocking innovation here, we are talking about comment that is not very relevant due to not knowing what it is really like to be doing it.

Also, I said that knowlege gained without direct experience must, by its very nature, be flawed.

Not of no value, but flawed.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I happen to know that Shamaya has been across the Atlantic and back at least once and he's a seasoned off-shore racer as skipper.
That doesn't validate his point more, but it invalidates your comment, John_Morris_UK.

I think you are wrong.

There have been several people questioning the amount of training the crew get. There have been allegations made that four weeks is inadequate. I suspect these people are speaking without experience. They are entitled to their opinion but one needs to weigh up how much credibility to give it.

I completely disagree. (Of course more training would always be better but there’s a pay off in training time vs output.)

I have sailed (and raced) large boats across oceans with some of the crew as complete novices. By large boats I mean 55’ and 67’ and with hank on sails. I’ve also been in the Southern Ocean although not sailed there.

It is certainly possible to manage the risk effectively although the way you run the boat may not be as effective in racing terms as a round the can racer or professional ocean race team.

Some of the comments questioning the training given were (in my humble opinion and with any respect due) completely gratuitous and inappropriate and would feed into bereaved families and friends grasping at things to blame.