Terrible news from Clipper

[lw395]

Not sure where you got these figures but they pale into insignificance compared to the TTs. Per Wikipedia:

In 2016, 5 riders died on the course during official practices or races, bringing the total number of fatalities to 252. There were six fatalities among competitors in the 1970 Isle of Man TT, making it the deadliest year in the history of the event.

And yet the thrill still draws the competitors in!

The TT and other road races do kill people, but mainly it's a man pushing his own limits.
I have a high respect for that.
It is a very big difference between risking your own life and risking other people's, or putting your own life in the hands of other people.
Maybe we've all gone soft with 70 years of more-or-less peace, but personally I want to be pretty sure nobody else is going to as a consequence of my actions or failings.

 

[Triassic]

Don’t be silly and play with words. Address the points made by MAIB, not try to suggest they are not points at all. Quite disrespectful IMHO.

You do always need to see further information, don’t you? Can you ever have enough information to form an opinion?

I'm sorry, I'm now confused. You were the one suggesting Clipper hadn't followed recommendations, I'm just asking you which ones and what makes you think they haven't followed them. Everyone has an opinion, it's just some of them are based on fact.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Note the use of the word "consideration" in that recommendation. I would suggest that the fact that they had an individual other than the skipper on board who is trained to qualify for a Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate, developed with, and approved by, the MCA, to support the skipper and take over in the event that they are incapacitated indicates they have considered it.

It sound more as if they decided that putting someone through a two week course could be used to avoid the expense (salary and loss of paying berth) involved in carrying a second professional. Ah well. Doubtless that will be covered in the next two reports.

 

[bitbaltic]

I'm sorry, I'm now confused.

Indeed.

 

[bitbaltic]

It sound more as if they decided that putting someone through a two week course could be used to avoid the expense (salary and loss of paying berth) involved in carrying a second professional. Ah well. Doubtless that will be covered in the next two reports.

Yes indeed. A most reckless assumption in the absence of more information. Quite impossible to form an opinion. Any reasonable person would be deeply confused.

 

[STOL71]

3 deaths in 2 years seem an awful lot.
4 weeks' training doesn't seem an awful lot.

 

[Triassic]

....Any reasonable person would be deeply confused.

A reasonable person would answer the question and avoid generating unnecessary confusion...... In my experience people generally resort to insult when they have lost the ability to present rational argument.

 

[Resolution]

TT is private entries, your own risk on your own Bike?

Clipper is a organisation that has a responsibility to take care of its customers that pay large amount of money. Must have a duty of care.

Not sure the entrants and customers would see the distinction so clearly. In both cases they are up for a testing, exhilarating experience.

More relevant, IMHO, is the difference between solo sports and team sports. It does seem that the Clipper experience relies on lots of team players of very variable skills and experience. Part of the challenge and part of the risk?

 

[bitbaltic]

A reasonable person would answer the question and avoid generating unnecessary confusion...... In my experience people generally resort to insult when they have lost the ability to present rational argument

Or when the interlocutor ducks it.

Care to deal with the MAIB points? To be honest, I don’t care to listen. (That’s not an insult by the way; it is an opinion based on quite a lot of fact).

 

[Triassic]

Care to deal with the MAIB points? .

Which ones specifically?

 

[johndove]

3 deaths in 2 years seem an awful lot.
4 weeks' training doesn't seem an awful lot.

How many more deaths before the Clipper Race finishes? Or is 3 deaths Enough.

Can't see the Clipper Race carring on.

 

[john_morris_uk]

He was said to be RYA Coastal the other day.
I've got over 40 years of varied dinghy sailing too, as well as other stuff up to maxi. It's irrelevant.
It's wrong to focus on the bloke who died. It's a team 'sport'. You need excellent teamwork to sail one of those things safely, racing on the real ocean.
That, in my experience is a damn hard thing to make happen and it does not happen in 4 or 6 weeks.

Saying your 40 years dinghy sailing experience is irrelevant is not true. Wind awareness and sailing skills honed through dinghy sailing is always going to be relevant. How directly relevant is another matter.

Good skippering takes into account lack of polish in teamwork. It’s perfectly possible to be ‘safe’ after a few days sailing, let alone six weeks. You might not be competitive against a professionally worked up and polished crew but you can be safe.

Part of my job until recently was to take crews sailing (sometimes across Oceans) on large boats. The crew were often some complete novices mixed with some experienced assistants.

With respect I really do wonder how much experience you have of sailing big powerful boats over 55 or 60’ in length?

I know one of the training skippers for Clipper. I cannot imagine a more careful, safety concious skipper. There’s far to much speculation and willingness to condemn on the flimsiest of guesswork and supposition about a tragic accident in which an experienced sailor lost their life.

 

[lpdsn]

It sound more as if they decided that putting someone through a two week course could be used to avoid the expense (salary and loss of paying berth) involved in carrying a second professional. Ah well. Doubtless that will be covered in the next two reports.

Although it seems the bloke lost was already an experienced YM Offshore, so a medical and a short shorebased course would've been enough to make him a professional.

 

[capnsensible]

It is clear that some posters have serious concerns about the whole organisation of Clipper.

My question is this

When you contacted Clipper direct and made them aware of your complaints, what was their response?

 

[Fox Morgan]

you could have condensed that a little smaller perhaps?
They aren't stopping people climbing Everest. They are trying to mitigate some at higher risk.

I don't understand how quickly this forum topic has descended into a litany of MIAB recommendations that are real or not, or other passive aggressive comments.

I'm surprised this debate has been allowed to go on so far without a moderator halting it. There will be an investigation. It would be wise of all of us to await the results of that investigation before commenting further. In the interests of allowing a fair hearing/investigation I will have no further part in this.

 

[Triassic]

I'm surprised this debate has been allowed to go on so far without a moderator halting it. There will be an investigation. It would be wise of all of us to await the results of that investigation before commenting further. In the interests of allowing a fair hearing/investigation I will have no further part in this.

This thread started as a group of yachties commiserating over the death of a fellow sailor, however individuals then started to infer blame or responsibility lay somewhere. I thought that was inappropriate. I was bought up to challenge things I believe to be wrong and I see no reason to change that providing it can be done politely, which I believe is the case so far.

 

[johndove]

It is clear that some posters have serious concerns about the whole organisation of Clipper.

My question is this

When you contacted Clipper direct and made them aware of your complaints, what was their response?

Not up to me to contact and complain to Clipper. I just don't think they should carry on if they keep losing people.

Leave it to the MCA and MAIB if they feel fit to carry on or not.

Also maybe the RYA have to decide if a RYA training centre can carry on losing people

 

[JumbleDuck]

With respect I really do wonder how much experience you have of sailing big powerful boats over 55 or 60’ in length?

I personally have none, which is why, were I ever to think of doing one of these trips, I would have to rely on the organisers' risk assessment. Three deaths and one total loss so close together would not earn my wholehearted confidence.

 

[JumbleDuck]

They aren't stopping people climbing Everest. They are trying to mitigate some at higher risk.

They are stopping some people climbing Everest and they have twice recently stopped everybody from climbing it for a while. Your evident belief that Everest is free-for all for self-reliant adventurers was rather ill-founded.

 

[Mark-1]

Although it seems the bloke lost was already an experienced YM Offshore, so a medical and a short shorebased course would've been enough to make him a professional.

That's an interesting point.

"In particular, consideration should be given to the merits of manning each yacht with a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board.’"