Terrible news from Clipper

[Fox Morgan]

With 1 death and 2 medevac due to injuries, plus loss of boat in this race. Only on leg 3

Last race 2 deaths.

How long will it be able to carry On?

how many people have taken part in the 20 years of clipper races? Thousands of people have taken part. (nearly 5000) It has a combined mileage ( my head has trouble working out but here's a rough guide) is in the region of 4 million miles, in all those miles and years and thousands of participants, it has lost just two boats and a fatality rate of 3. All things considered this is remarkable. You face a higher risk of death driving your car to the supermarket.
How many people have died as part of the Whitbread or Volvo round world race, which has had considerably fewer people taking part? Four people.
How many have died as part of other off-shore races? Shall we ban the Fastnet race? How about the Vendee Globe? Three people have been lost associated with that race, but also, nearly 50% of boats don't manage to finish, with several life and death scenarios of rescue being carried out. every-single-race-edition. With only just over 100 different people participating in the entire history of that event, why is nobody calling for it to be banned due to the 3% death factor? (I certainly hope nobody is, because I hope one day to take part in this one)

The clipper race, if we can judge by incidents per miles sailed, has perhaps one of the very best safety records of all of the ocean racing events. So, please stop with the negativity especially from some others on here who have been bleating about how the training is insufficient or the race is doomed. It's very sad a person has been lost. That's all there is to say about it.
Thankfully we are still able to go and do crazy fun adventurous challenges like this. (I'm no fan girl of RKJ, I have no affiliation with the race other than knowing a few people who have done it and a few skippers too.)

 

[Resolution]

I have not read all the posts, but as a competitor in hazardous motorcycle sports for many years I reckon to know a bit about voluntarily putting oneself at risk of death or serious injury.

He decided to pay, accept and pass the training and go to sea on an adventure.

Like me-and First Mate, another motor cycle racer-he chose to put himself at risk to experience the highs and lows of a serious challenge. I forget who exactly said it, but unless you have taken part in sports or pastimes where serious injury or death is a distinct possibility you have not fully experienced life. A sentiment I can relate to.

I am sure it was not a decision taken lightly, and the risks were known.

The sea, especially the Southern Ocean, is a very dangerous place.

$H1t happens........................................

RIP.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Rotrax you are so upsetting all the H&S armchair pundits.
By wonderful coincidence yesterday a young friend copied me in on a Facebook video entitled TT Road Warriers Lockk9's video. I cannot link to it here because it would cause the above H&S pundits fits and frothing. Wow! Is it hairy out there in the IOM!
Peter

 

[johndove]

He also successfully completed the Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate (CRCC) in February this year in anticipation of his challenge. Designed in collaboration with the Maritime Coastguard Agency (MCA), and the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) specifically for the Clipper Race, this involved an intensive two-week course, in addition to the four weeks of compulsory training that all Clipper Race crew must complete which concentrates on safety at sea.

So in total in 3 1/2 years 7 lives have been lost in 4 incidents, involving RYA Training centres.

 

[johndove]

how many people have taken part in the 20 years of clipper races? Thousands of people have taken part. (nearly 5000) It has a combined mileage ( my head has trouble working out but here's a rough guide) is in the region of 4 million miles, in all those miles and years and thousands of participants, it has lost just two boats and a fatality rate of 3. All things considered this is remarkable. You face a higher risk of death driving your car to the supermarket.
How many people have died as part of the Whitbread or Volvo round world race, which has had considerably fewer people taking part? Four people.
How many have died as part of other off-shore races? Shall we ban the Fastnet race? How about the Vendee Globe? Three people have been lost associated with that race, but also, nearly 50% of boats don't manage to finish, with several life and death scenarios of rescue being carried out. every-single-race-edition. With only just over 100 different people participating in the entire history of that event, why is nobody calling for it to be banned due to the 3% death factor? (I certainly hope nobody is, because I hope one day to take part in this one)

The clipper race, if we can judge by incidents per miles sailed, has perhaps one of the very best safety records of all of the ocean racing events. So, please stop with the negativity especially from some others on here who have been bleating about how the training is insufficient or the race is doomed. It's very sad a person has been lost. That's all there is to say about it.
Thankfully we are still able to go and do crazy fun adventurous challenges like this. (I'm no fan girl of RKJ, I have no affiliation with the race other than knowing a few people who have done it and a few skippers too.)

Why is it happening Now? Anything to do with the bigger more powerful yachts? More competitive Racing?

3 deaths in 3 years, can't carry On?

 

[capnsensible]

So in total in 3 1/2 years 7 lives have been lost in 4 incidents, involving RYA Training centres.

Sorry, dont quite get that?

 

[Triassic]

There is plenty of public information, including detailed reports and safety recommendations unimplimented, which provide a platform to discuss Clipper’s competency, and there is nothing disrespectful about that. They have been given recommendations publicly and chosen not to follow them publicly. Questions of their competence predate this event.

You appear to be suggesting that the Clipper organisation have not followed a recommendation following a previous incident and as such infer that they are not responsible. What or which recommendation is that?

I've done just a little digging and looked at the report released into the 2015/16 fatalities and the recommendations there are:

"Clipper Ventures plc has been recommended (2017/107) to review and modify its onboard manning policy and shore-based management procedures so that Clipper yacht skippers are effectively supported, and where appropriate, challenged to ensure safe working practices are maintained continuously on board."

and

"A recommendation (2017/108) has also been made to Clipper Ventures plc to complete its review of the risks associated with MOB and recovery, and its development of appropriate control measures to reduce those risks to as low as reasonably practicable."

There were two additional recommendations in relation to ropes and the use of, not relevant to this discussion as they pertained to the reason behind the accidental gybe that led to one of the deaths.

In addition to the MAIB official recommendations in their report their chief inspector said "While a single employee on board a commercial yacht may provide sufficient company oversight in many circumstances, the special nature of the Clipper Round the World Yacht Race places a huge responsibility on one person to ensure the safety of the yacht and its crew at all times.

‘Therefore, in addition to acknowledging the completed and ongoing actions taken following the two accidents featured in this report, I am recommending Clipper Ventures plc review and modify its onboard manning policy and shore-based management procedures so that Clipper yacht skippers are effectively supported and, where appropriate, challenged to ensure that safe working practices are maintained continuously on board. In particular, consideration should be given to the merits of manning each yacht with a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board.’

Further, a minimum of at least one crew member per team is trained to qualify for a Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate, developed with, and approved by, the MCA, to support the skipper and take over in the event that they are incapacitated.

Is there some other report or recommendation I should be looking at. If not I would suggest that to infer that the Clipper organisation have not followed a recommendation is, in the absence of further information, somewhat misleading and given the inference attached to it somewhat mischievous. I don't know if you have a particular reason for wanting to paint them in that light, I personally have no view either way other than to see fair play.

 

[johndove]

Sorry, dont quite get that?

Cheeki Rafiki 4 lives 2014 and 3 lives with Clipper. Both RYA training centres.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Rotrax you are so upsetting all the H&S armchair pundits.

I think you need a "so-called" in there for full Daily Mail compatibility

By wonderful coincidence yesterday a young friend copied me in on a Facebook video entitled TT Road Warriers Lockk9's video. I cannot link to it here because it would cause the above H&S pundits fits and frothing. Wow! Is it hairy out there in the IOM!

I was thinking about the TT when I read Rotrax's post. Would you pay for someone to give you a ride round the closed course in a racing sidecar and, if so, would you expect their training or the combination to have undergone any sort of inspection? Would you go if the rider told you that you were uninsured.

 

[Fox Morgan]

Why is it happening Now? Anything to do with the bigger more powerful yachts? More competitive Racing?

3 deaths in 3 years, can't carry On?

That's the thing with random incidents. They often cluster. There's every chance that over the next 10 years, no further lives will be lost. Or maybe there will be some catastrophe that will result in something awful. We can't know. The loss of 15 lives during the 1979 fastnet race didn't stop people entering the race and it continues to be one of the more popular single short races, despite some major boat losses as well as the aforementioned loss of life.
We can read nothing more into it than that. Each incident so far as been unrelated to the size of the boat and unrelated to each other in terms of safety protocols. Pure random incidents/accidents.

What about every year, people attempt to climb Everest. Almost every year people die. Nobody is suggesting that we stop that sort of activity.

 

[JumbleDuck]

"In particular, consideration should be given to the merits of manning each yacht with a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board.’"

Is there some other report or recommendation I should be looking at. If not I would suggest that to infer that the Clipper organisation have not followed a recommendation is, in the absence of further information, somewhat misleading and given the inference attached to it somewhat mischievous. I don't know if you have a particular reason for wanting to paint them in that light, I personally have no view either way other than to see fair play.

Did the vessel in this case have "a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board?"

 

[Resolution]

So in total in 3 1/2 years 7 lives have been lost in 4 incidents, involving RYA Training centres.

Not sure where you got these figures but they pale into insignificance compared to the TTs. Per Wikipedia:

In 2016, 5 riders died on the course during official practices or races, bringing the total number of fatalities to 252. There were six fatalities among competitors in the 1970 Isle of Man TT, making it the deadliest year in the history of the event.

And yet the thrill still draws the competitors in!

 

[Fox Morgan]

Did the vessel in this case have "a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board?"

yes JumbleDuck, the fatality, he was that person trained as the coxswain. Very competent and safety conscious.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What about every year, people attempt to climb Everest. Almost every year people die. Nobody is suggesting that we stop that sort of activity.

 

[johndove]

Not sure where you got these figures but they pale into insignificance compared to the TTs. Per Wikipedia:

In 2016, 5 riders died on the course during official practices or races, bringing the total number of fatalities to 252. There were six fatalities among competitors in the 1970 Isle of Man TT, making it the deadliest year in the history of the event.

And yet the thrill still draws the competitors in!

TT is private entries, your own risk on your own Bike?

Clipper is a organisation that has a responsibility to take care of its customers that pay large amount of money. Must have a duty of care.

 

[JumbleDuck]

yes JumbleDuck, the fatality, he was that person trained as the coxswain. Very competent and safety conscious.

It is clear that the report was calling for two additional roles: second qualified seafarer and coxswain. Are you saying that Clipper decided that a two week training course was sufficient to give someone "appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board?"

 

[lw395]

I rather think they did take the recommends very seriously. Who wouldnt??

A member of the crew since Race Start in the UK on August 20, 2017, Simon was a highly experienced sailor with over 40 years dinghy experience and an RYA Yachtmaster Certificate.

He also successfully completed the Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate (CRCC) in February this year in anticipation of his challenge. Designed in collaboration with the Maritime Coastguard Agency (MCA), and the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) specifically for the Clipper Race, this involved an intensive two-week course, in addition to the four weeks of compulsory training that all Clipper Race crew must complete which concentrates on safety at sea.

He was said to be RYA Coastal the other day.
I've got over 40 years of varied dinghy sailing too, as well as other stuff up to maxi. It's irrelevant.
It's wrong to focus on the bloke who died. It's a team 'sport'. You need excellent teamwork to sail one of those things safely, racing on the real ocean.
That, in my experience is a damn hard thing to make happen and it does not happen in 4 or 6 weeks.

 

[JumbleDuck]

TT is private entries, your own risk on your own Bike?

Clipper is a organisation that has a responsibility to take care of its customers that pay large amount of money. Must have a duty of care.

Exactly. It's entirely consistent to think that individuals should be able to risk their own lives but that commercial organisations should be held to high safety standards, but the gung-ho armchair adventurers like to lump everything together as health and safety gone made.

 

[johndove]

RYA took the tide out of Day Skipper practical.

You can get a Yachtmaster offshore with zero to hero with schools like UKSA and girls4sail without taking a boat out by yourself.

Get you Ocean Yachtmaster without crossing a ocean.

Qualifications don't mean much nowadays.

 

[Triassic]

Did the vessel in this case have "a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board?"

Note the use of the word "consideration" in that recommendation. I would suggest that the fact that they had an individual other than the skipper on board who is trained to qualify for a Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate, developed with, and approved by, the MCA, to support the skipper and take over in the event that they are incapacitated indicates they have considered it.

Also note that particular "recommendation" wasn't made in the official MAIB report, it was an observation made by their officer afterwards.

 

[bitbaltic]

You appear to be suggesting that the Clipper organisation have not followed a recommendation following a previous incident and as such infer that they are not responsible. What or which recommendation is that?

I've done just a little digging and looked at the report released into the 2015/16 fatalities and the recommendations there are:

"Clipper Ventures plc has been recommended (2017/107) to review and modify its onboard manning policy and shore-based management procedures so that Clipper yacht skippers are effectively supported, and where appropriate, challenged to ensure safe working practices are maintained continuously on board."

and

"A recommendation (2017/108) has also been made to Clipper Ventures plc to complete its review of the risks associated with MOB and recovery, and its development of appropriate control measures to reduce those risks to as low as reasonably practicable."

There were two additional recommendations in relation to ropes and the use of, not relevant to this discussion as they pertained to the reason behind the accidental gybe that led to one of the deaths.

In addition to the MAIB official recommendations in their report their chief inspector said "While a single employee on board a commercial yacht may provide sufficient company oversight in many circumstances, the special nature of the Clipper Round the World Yacht Race places a huge responsibility on one person to ensure the safety of the yacht and its crew at all times.

‘Therefore, in addition to acknowledging the completed and ongoing actions taken following the two accidents featured in this report, I am recommending Clipper Ventures plc review and modify its onboard manning policy and shore-based management procedures so that Clipper yacht skippers are effectively supported and, where appropriate, challenged to ensure that safe working practices are maintained continuously on board. In particular, consideration should be given to the merits of manning each yacht with a second employee or contracted ‘seafarer’ with appropriate competence and a duty to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons on board.’

Further, a minimum of at least one crew member per team is trained to qualify for a Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate, developed with, and approved by, the MCA, to support the skipper and take over in the event that they are incapacitated.

Is there some other report or recommendation I should be looking at. If not I would suggest that to infer that the Clipper organisation have not followed a recommendation is, in the absence of further information, somewhat misleading and given the inference attached to it somewhat mischievous. I don't know if you have a particular reason for wanting to paint them in that light, I personally have no view either way other than to see fair play.

Don’t be silly and play with words. Address the points made by MAIB, not try to suggest they are not points at all. Quite disrespectful IMHO.

You do always need to see further information, don’t you? Can you ever have enough information to form an opinion?