Terrible news from Clipper

[thecommander]

I can only imagine the boat was surfing down large waves, so not your typical MOB in the Solent scenario....

The question is why are Clipper putting their crews at risk by not using furling head sails? Or furlers = less crew = less income/profit per boat...

 

[Capt Popeye]

Being hit on the head by the boom is less likely on a bigger boat. The boom is higher.
It's also unmistakably massive, a crash helmet is probably not going to help much.
I don't think wearing a helmet for days on end in a wet environment is something I'd want to do.

Humm I was thinking of the type Canoeists wear, and they do get wet in the canoes, including Rolling Them ?

 

[Spyro]

I can only imagine the boat was surfing down large waves, so not your typical MOB in the Solent scenario....

The question is why are Clipper putting their crews at risk by not using furling head sails? Or furlers = less crew = less income/profit per boat...

I'm more inclined to think that if they were doing a sail change they weren't surfing down big waves. More likely to be going very slowly and pointing upwind which makes it even more of a mystery why it took so long to get him back on board. 20 knots gusting 40 also seems unusual offshore conditions.

 

[Resolution]

Humm I was thinking of the type Canoeists wear, and they do get wet in the canoes, including Rolling Them ?

I'm not convinced a helmet would help much. One of these booms would probably take your head right off, helmet and all. At best a broken neck.

Worth remembering that the Clipper guy who was killed last time round died from being hit on the neck by the mainsheet, IIRC.

 

[lpdsn]

20 knots gusting 40 also seems unusual offshore conditions.

OK, that's typical of conditions in the lieu of land, but still it could just have been an unstable air flow exacerbated by the effect of shelter in the troughs of large waves.

 

[Giblets]

Unless Clipper yachts have self tacking foresails involving the use of a boom (which they don't) then the story from the TV station is more than a little suspect and smacks of totally incompetent journalism (what's new) as Clipper's own report stated that the poor chap was on the foredeck assisting in a headsail change.

 

[westhinder]

We know some facts.
We know the boats are crewed by paying amateurs with less than half a term's training.
We know the boats are big, fast and hard work.
We know what oceans can be like.

From that, it's not hard to understand that mishaps will happen. And that a mishap in these circumstances is likely to be serious or fatal.
I don't think laying the blame on the skipper or the bloke on the wheel or any other crew member who could have prevented this death is helpful.
The problem appears to be within the concept and culture of the organisation.

I am afraid you are right.
Any comparison with Volvo/Vendée etc is flawed as these are highly experienced, professional athletes at the top of their game.
They did well to recover the victim, which shows their training is effective up to a point, but they will never be able to reach an even remotely similar level of competence as the professionals in four or six weeks' training. Given that fact the whole concept is questionable, as is the ethics of charging people substantial amounts of money for participating in this so-called race.

 

[flaming]

I'm more inclined to think that if they were doing a sail change they weren't surfing down big waves. More likely to be going very slowly and pointing upwind which makes it even more of a mystery why it took so long to get him back on board. 20 knots gusting 40 also seems unusual offshore conditions.

It's a lot, lot harder to do a headsail change going slowly upwind in 40knots apparent with the sail flogging like a mad thing and the boat jumping off waves and waves crashing over the foredeck crew than it is going fast downwind in less than 30 apparent and the boat relatively stable with a dry foredeck. It just requires enough bodies to tame the leach of the sail as it comes down. And if your helm is good enough to get the leach of the sail into the lee of the main without risking a gybe it's relatively easy.

That last point, if I'm picturing the scenario correctly, could turn out to be quite important.

If they really were turning upwind to change sails when their course was running downwind, then I think some very serious questions would have to be answered about their practices. But I'd be staggered if they were.

 

[savageseadog]

We know some facts.
We know the boats are crewed by paying amateurs with less than half a term's training.
We know the boats are big, fast and hard work.
We know what oceans can be like.

From that, it's not hard to understand that mishaps will happen. And that a mishap in these circumstances is likely to be serious or fatal.
I don't think laying the blame on the skipper or the bloke on the wheel or any other crew member who could have prevented this death is helpful.
The problem appears to be within the concept and culture of the organisation.

I broadly agree with that. Part of the problem is that to sell the idea to people, the round the World venture thing, an Everest of adventure. The dangers of the Southern Ocean as a tester for people who want to experience such things and be able to tell friends and family about it and possibly attract sponsorship, a packaged experience. The truth is there's lots of adventure to be had sailing round Britain and Ireland, a great deal safer, but that would never have the selling power.

 

[[163233]]

I'm more inclined to think that if they were doing a sail change they weren't surfing down big waves. More likely to be going very slowly and pointing upwind...

They don't head up to change sail on these do they?

 

[alant]

Unless Clipper yachts have self tacking foresails involving the use of a boom (which they don't) then the story from the TV station is more than a little suspect and smacks of totally incompetent journalism (what's new) as Clipper's own report stated that the poor chap was on the foredeck assisting in a headsail change.

Makes you wonder about all the blathering on here, regarding "being struck by a boom" then.

 

[bitbaltic]

We know some facts.
We know the boats are crewed by paying amateurs with less than half a term's training.
We know the boats are big, fast and hard work.
We know what oceans can be like.

From that, it's not hard to understand that mishaps will happen. And that a mishap in these circumstances is likely to be serious or fatal.
I don't think laying the blame on the skipper or the bloke on the wheel or any other crew member who could have prevented this death is helpful.
The problem appears to be within the concept and culture of the organisation.

Agree with that especially the last point.

This is an organisation that received a considered and professional report from the MAIB telling them to take two experienced professionals on each boat and which did nothing more than ignore it. That’s a corporate culture problem. Not necessarily unsafe, but indisputably not as safe as an impartial, professional organisation believes they need to be.

Ignoring this event let’s imagine that at some future date one of their boats is in Flaming’s very interesting scenario where they are trying to minimise risk to the deck crew by sheltering the foresail leech(es) with the main running downwind. One professional supervises the helm (or takes it) while the other professional supervises the deck crew for a safe, by the book job. Sounds sensible to me.

If you’re the sole professional on board, which job do you choose to do? It’s a very difficult position.

 

[Triassic]

My understanding is that the casualty had been on the vessel since the start of the event some three months ago, so not exactly inexperienced. I know we're all interested in how incidents such as this happen but if we can't be confident it was just a tragic accident until there is reliable information to the contrary we should at least be respectful enough not to speculate on the competency of the individuals or organisations involved.

 

[rotrax]

I have not read all the posts, but as a competitor in hazardous motorcycle sports for many years I reckon to know a bit about voluntarily putting oneself at risk of death or serious injury.

He decided to pay, accept and pass the training and go to sea on an adventure.

Like me-and First Mate, another motor cycle racer-he chose to put himself at risk to experience the highs and lows of a serious challenge. I forget who exactly said it, but unless you have taken part in sports or pastimes where serious injury or death is a distinct possibility you have not fully experienced life. A sentiment I can relate to.

I am sure it was not a decision taken lightly, and the risks were known.

The sea, especially the Southern Ocean, is a very dangerous place.

$H1t happens........................................

RIP.

 

[bitbaltic]

until there is reliable information to the contrary we should at least be respectful enough not to speculate on the competency of the individuals or organisations involved.

Questions of the competency of the individual involved in this incident (which personally I don’t think likely to be a strong contributory factor) of course must wait for more information.

There is plenty of public information, including detailed reports and safety recommendations unimplimented, which provide a platform to discuss Clipper’s competency, and there is nothing disrespectful about that. They have been given recommendations publicly and chosen not to follow them publicly. Questions of their competence predate this event.

 

[johndove]

With 1 death and 2 medevac due to injuries, plus loss of boat in this race. Only on leg 3

Last race 2 deaths.

How long will it be able to carry On?

 

[Triassic]

... They have been given recommendations publicly and chosen not to follow them publicly.

And if indeed it is subsequently shown that their failure to follow such recommendations contributed in some way towards another incident they can indeed be criticised, until then it is pure speculation.

 

[bitbaltic]

And if indeed it is subsequently shown that their failure to follow such recommendations contributed in some way towards another incident they can indeed be criticised, until then it is pure speculation.

Recommendations are given so that organisations don’t wait to find out, and responsible ones don’t wait to find out. ‘Thanks, but we’ll see’ is not now seen as good practice in any activity or industry. No speculation whatever about that.

 

[Sailingsaves]

Thoughts with his family and friends.

No mention of lifejacket having a SPRAYHOOD.
Drowning as supposed cause of death according to Clipper. Buried at sea.
https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/news/article/fatality-statement-simon-speirs--cv30

 

[capnsensible]

And if indeed it is subsequently shown that their failure to follow such recommendations contributed in some way towards another incident they can indeed be criticised, until then it is pure speculation.

I rather think they did take the recommends very seriously. Who wouldnt??

A member of the crew since Race Start in the UK on August 20, 2017, Simon was a highly experienced sailor with over 40 years dinghy experience and an RYA Yachtmaster Certificate.

He also successfully completed the Clipper Race Coxswain Certificate (CRCC) in February this year in anticipation of his challenge. Designed in collaboration with the Maritime Coastguard Agency (MCA), and the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) specifically for the Clipper Race, this involved an intensive two-week course, in addition to the four weeks of compulsory training that all Clipper Race crew must complete which concentrates on safety at sea.