Terrible news from Clipper

[DownWest]

Dreadful news for the whole community and of course his family and friends.

Obviously we as boat-peole on these fora feel the incidents and losses more sharply, but let's not forget that the Clipper, Vendee etc are just one sort of "extreme" activities that adventurous people take part in.



I flew in a Spitfire recently and before doing so updated my will and rationalised that if this fantastic thrill and achievement was to be my last then I'd have gone-out doing something amazing, fulfilling a life's ambition and in full knowledge of the fact "things can go wrong" no matter how much safety and preparation go into a situation.


Condolences to those left behind.

I was offered a flight in a P51 a while back. The same a/c crashed recently and the passenger died. I have often flown in a/c of similar vintage and had no expectation of the same risk as flying RyanAir. I also flew with the late Ken Wallis and he cheerfully presented me with a disclaimer to sign before we set off in his autogyro .
Anybody who signs on for such trips must be aware that things might go wrong.

 

[bitbaltic]

Taking responsibility for the decision to join an adventure is not the same as taking responsibility for everything that may happen on that adventure. Every participant who joins the Clipper race is aware of the risks it presents, they spend a minimum of four weeks (in this individuals case six weeks) training to deal with those risks so they know what they are getting into. It is the skippers responsibility to ensure they are not exposed to anything they are not trained to deal with however there remains a degree of personal responsibility that you follow that training.

Excellent. So all clipper and their skippers need do is demonstrate the crews were operating within their trained expectations and anything else is the victim’s fault.

Doesn’t the four weeks training add up to something in the order of 3 weeks in the Solent and a week sailing offshore? Must be easy to demonstrate the entire crew was prepped for anything the open ocean can fling at them.

 

[savageseadog]

The organisation is headed by a convicted drink driver.

A bit below the belt and totally irrelevant to the accident, RKJ is one of the most decent people on the planet.

I do have reservations about Clipper. A few weeks training is no substitute for years of experience, there are some people, naturals, who will take to sailing readily and will have the mixture of abilities required. There are some people who will never be good sailors or be good team players, I am in no way referring to the casualty BTW. Safety issues are compounded as already pointed out by the fact that crew members are relying on other not necessarily competent crew for their safety.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is a very highly informed choice. You have previously accepted being informed that 4 weeks training is involved. That is one shedload of informed........

I am not the one pouring scorn on the idea of informed choices. You should direct your words to him.

 

[capnsensible]

Excellent. So all clipper and their skippers need do is demonstrate the crews were operating within their trained expectations and anything else is the victim’s fault.

Doesn’t the four weeks training add up to something in the order of 3 weeks in the Solent and a week sailing offshore? Must be easy to demonstrate the entire crew was prepped for anything the open ocean can fling at them.

Why not read all about it?

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/crew/training

 

[Wansworth]

From being in the midst of a sail change to full on mob mode and being successful. to a certain degree certainly showed organization and team work.

 

[bitbaltic]

Why not read all about it?

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/crew/training

What there contradicts my point?

“You must complete four levels of training on the Solent, UK.”

But I believ they do go further for offshore training, as I said.

 

[Triassic]

Excellent. So all clipper and their skippers need do is demonstrate the crews were operating within their trained expectations and anything else is the victim’s fault.

Why does it need to be someone "fault"? It would be pretty much impossible to remove all risk from something as dynamic as offshore sailing so sometimes you just have to accept that despite taking every reasonable precaution something can still go horribly wrong. The reason they spend so much time training and practicing MOB procedure is because this is a very real risk, and it's not an exact science. There are just to many variables at sea. There are clearly going to be conditions when a boat cannot be stopped and turned instantly, so sailors know there is a chance they will have to cut loose and rely on being found, why else would they carry a knife and a PLB/AIS locator?

Accidents happen, sometimes despite all reasonable precautions people die. Accept it or go live in an ivory tower somewhere, preferably where you can't have any influence on what I do......

 

[capnsensible]

What there contradicts my point?

“You must complete four levels of training on the Solent, UK.”

But I believ they do go further for offshore training, as I said.

The link explains the training involved in more detail. Thats all. You seem to be very anti Clipper. It may not suit you to apply.

 

[bitbaltic]

The link explains the training involved in more detail. Thats all. You seem to be very anti Clipper. It may not suit you to apply.

Apart from your opinion that I am not suited for clipper (thank you for that), what was your point?

 

[Neeves]

The fact they turned the yacht round in the Southern Ocean, or southern portion of the Indian Ocean, in 20 knots gusting 40 knots, moving from sail change to MOB in an instant, and picked up a body, so the body was incapable of any positive action, in such a short period of time shows good team coordination. I have to assume they had PLBs as when we had a MOB, with only slight seas, the person in the sea was lost from sight very, very quickly.

But the speed with which they recovered the body is creditable. They carry big crews and there would be enough competent individuals to handle the yacht, even if some of the others are less useful.

We don't know but if they were sailing offwind then turning into the prevailing conditions would be awful.

Hopefully we will find out the reasons, rather than speculating, as I have to assume that Clipper's equipment is state of the art, so better then ours, and I for one want to know where weaknesses in the systems or procedures lie. I am concerned that a man can drown so easily and so quickly as the usual concern is that the MOB is lost, completely, and drowning is down the list of possibilities.

Jonathan

 

[Frogmogman]

A bit below the belt and totally irrelevant to the accident, RKJ is one of the most decent people on the planet.

Totally agree. We all make mistakes. RKJ acted like an idiot in this particular instance and has admitted as much.

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

 

[mjcoon]

Totally agree. We all make mistakes. RKJ acted like an idiot in this particular instance and has admitted as much.

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

I think that was "cast the first stone". Putting it the other way round rather misses the point...

Mike (who does not possess a Bible).

 

[Frogmogman]

I think that was "cast the first stone". Putting it the other way round rather misses the point...

Mike (who does not possess a Bible).

That's as may be.

I was careful to write it verbatim (King James version).

 

[mjcoon]

That's as may be.

I was careful to write it verbatim (King James version).

Crikey; I have misunderstood it my whole life!

Mike.

 

[Frogmogman]

Crikey; I have misunderstood it my whole life!

Mike.

No.

King James just liked stuff expressed upside down.

 

[penberth3]

...sailors know there is a chance they will have to cut loose and rely on being found, why else would they carry a knife and a PLB/AIS locator?

Cutting loose? How can someone who is clipped-on go over the side in the first place?

 

[Uricanejack]

The organisation is headed by a convicted drink driver.

I am not impressed anyone who drinks and drives. Even so I don't see the relevance. I think hitting a bit bellow the belt.
In my view he's done the crime been convicted and served his sentence. Its what he does from now on what counts.
He cant change his past. Hopefully he has changed his future actions.

 

[Uricanejack]

Cutting loose? How can someone who is clipped-on go over the side in the first place?

If the tether is to long? only to easily.

The difference between fall prevention and fall arrest is quite significant. For fall prevention the planned securing point and length of the tether should prevent a person from reaching the edge. if they are not planned right then it is quite possible to fall of the edge.

 

[Uricanejack]

Why does it need to be someone "fault"? It would be pretty much impossible to remove all risk from something as dynamic as offshore sailing so sometimes you just have to accept that despite taking every reasonable precaution something can still go horribly wrong. The reason they spend so much time training and practicing MOB procedure is because this is a very real risk, and it's not an exact science. There are just to many variables at sea. There are clearly going to be conditions when a boat cannot be stopped and turned instantly, so sailors know there is a chance they will have to cut loose and rely on being found, why else would they carry a knife and a PLB/AIS locator?

Accidents happen, sometimes despite all reasonable precautions people die. Accept it or go live in an ivory tower somewhere, preferably where you can't have any influence on what I do......

Finding fault or blaming someone is not an effective way of preventing accidents.
Acidents do not just happen, they happen for multiple reasons.
Accepting acidents for any reason is I would sugest unacceptable.
Just because something was unforeseen does not mean it could not have been prevented. The important part is to learn from it and ensure it does not happen again.
While it is impossible to completely eradicate all potential accidents. Eradicating common accidents should be worthwhile goal.
Hopefully lessons learned from this tragic incident will lead to a safer future event