Terrible news from Clipper

[JumbleDuck]

Cutting loose? How can someone who is clipped-on go over the side in the first place?

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/per...acht-lion-off-selsey-bill-west-sussex-england

 

[Triassic]

...
Accepting acidents for any reason is I would sugest unacceptable.
Just because something was unforeseen does not mean it could not have been prevented. The important part is to learn from it and ensure it does not happen again.
Hopefully this incident will lead to a safer future event

Are you suggesting the possibility of an accident occurring should be prevented whatever the cost? You could I suppose keep all the Clipper fleet in harbour and only let them venture out in conditions under a force three but that would rather defeat the object of the exercise wouldn't it? It would certainly make it hard to sail around the world, or perhaps you think that in itself is a dangerous activity and should be stopped?

The possibility of someone going over the side definitely wasn't unforeseen, as I said before it is one of the scenarios they train for most and equip individuals to deal with. I'm not familiar with the specific layout of a Clipper but I imagine it is pretty hard, if not impossible, to arrange tethers on the foredeck of a monohull so that they prevent someone reaching the side. To do so would in itself present a safety hazard by restricting movement so there has to be a compromise, which in itself is an acceptance of the possibility of an accident occurring.

 

[Uricanejack]

Very sad.
Why is the Clipper seemingly more dangerous than the Vendee? Is it simply that the more people are out there, the more likely that one will come to harm?

It is very Sad.
I don't see why Clipper would be any more or less dangerous than any other crewed RTW or Ocean race. The risks would surly be inherently similar. Single handed races would riskier but quite a different kettle of fish.
The question I have are. Why have Clipper had 3 fatal accidents in a relatively short time (two races) While the others have not. What are they doing different.
Why have Clipper had more fatal accidents in recent races compared to earlier races?
The others races may just be have been lucky. More likely there is something different.
Obviously crew experience is a difference.
All the races have different crew requirements. And other vessels sail other types of voyage with relatively inexperienced crew.
So crew experience is to simple to be an answer.
More people on more boats more likely hood? Maybe? again to simple,

Its not very long since we just read a MAIB report. Which included an MOB. Recommendations tend to be very general. It will be interesting to see what changes Clipper made as a result of past recommendations.
Which leads to my next questions. Were those changes sufficient. Will we see recommendations repeated or very similar new recommendations.
In other words has clipper learned from its past or not.

 

[Uricanejack]

Are you suggesting the possibility of an accident occurring should be prevented whatever the cost? You could I suppose keep all the Clipper fleet in harbour and only let them venture out in conditions under a force three but that would rather defeat the object of the exercise wouldn't it? It would certainly make it hard to sail around the world, or perhaps you think that in itself is a dangerous activity and should be stopped?

The possibility of someone going over the side definitely wasn't unforeseen, as I said before it is one of the scenarios they train for most and equip individuals to deal with. I'm not familiar with the specific layout of a Clipper but I imagine it is pretty hard, if not impossible, to arrange tethers on the foredeck of a monohull so that they prevent someone reaching the side. To do so would in itself present a safety hazard by restricting movement so there has to be a compromise, which in itself is an acceptance of the possibility of an accident occurring.

The only way to be 100 percent sure no accident can happen is to never do anything. As you said never leave the dock. Even the best systems sometimes fail. The more human involvement the more likely a failure.
All you can do is put a system in place to try and catch the errors or failures before an accident happens. If one does learn from it so you don't repeat the same errors.

I don't know anything about Clipper apart from what I can recall of the last MAIB report.

Training was part of it. So was the culture. Training to respond all well and good. You also have to Train to prevent. I am sure they probably did a lot of that.
What did they do to change the culture. Reality that's a whole lot harder. I would be surprised if it changed enough after only one or two years.
Not because its Clipper. It takes most organisations a long time and a long hard look at itself to change a culture even after a major accident.

Without know anything about this accident at all or predicting any answers.
Just a General observation. Training alone will not prevent accidents. Then you get into the whole H&S side of things. Sometimes even the best ones fail.

How important is H&S in an event like clipper. My answer is its still a company which charges people a fare to sail on one of their vessels. Cruise Ship or adventurous sailing race. You pay a fare they have a duty to ensure you come home safe and well.
You pay a company to crew or get paid to crew you should come home safe and well.

I accept there will be times this does not happen. Simply because of the laws of probability. Those same laws of pobability say three fatalities in a short space of time.
There a problem with the companies H&S.
Clipper is not the first company or the last to have a fatal accident. If they learn from them they will probably be a lot safer in the future.
In order to reduce the probability of an accident. They need to look a lot of things they do. In particular they need to look at their near misses.

 

[Seven Spades]

This is a very strange accident. I don't agree with LW395 you cannot possible lay the blame at this stage we do not know the facts. It makes no sense that he died even if he did end up on the water, he had everything he should have needed to ensure his survival. The difficult thing here is that no postmortem is possible.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm well on a TV News channel last night is appeared to be stated that the boom struck him on his head during a maneuver so might I ask ?
If the crew are amateurs why are they NOT wearing head protection as a normal H&S requirement ?
Do these Companies think it sissy or something ?
Cripes man, get real, this a common incident aboard a Sailing Yacht in heavy weather, is it not ?

 

[NormanB]

This is a very strange accident. I don't agree with LW395 you cannot possible lay the blame at this stage we do not know the facts. It makes no sense that he died even if he did end up on the water, he had everything he should have needed to ensure his survival. The difficult thing here is that no postmortem is possible.

It might make no sense from a position of not knowing all the facts. But if he had gone over when the vessel was doing say 10 knots, he would hav been dragged against the side of the boat and possibly with his head below surface and the forces involved would have left him powerless. He could have drowned within 2 or 3 minutes. The facts that his tether gave way and his body was recovered after 30 minutes would add more sense to a drowning scenario. One of the resuscitators a was a GP and his own evidence will be key.

 

[Robert Wilson]

This is a very strange accident. I don't agree with LW395 you cannot possible lay the blame at this stage we do not know the facts. It makes no sense that he died even if he did end up on the water, he had everything he should have needed to ensure his survival. The difficult thing here is that no postmortem is possible.

As you say, no possible post mortem at the moment. I presume his body has been/will be buried at sea?

We may never know why or how he died.
It may be that the accident/incident was a contributing factor, or even the direct cause. It may even be that he suffered a catastrophic, lethal experience before he went overboard and that the safety line failing was an isolated secondary incident.
He may have died in the water after he went adrift.
In those circumstances Clipper may well have no blame attaching. Or it may be they failed in some way.

Too many unknowns , at the moment.

What is apparent to me is that this sort of "experience" is hazardous and that more than likely the participants are/were well aware of some or all of the dangers.

Many people are lucky and some aren't.

I think, for all that discussion is worthwhile in sharing thoughts and experience, it is inappropriate to suggest blame and fault without knowing all the facts - which we may never know.

 

[stranded]

People put their trust in "the professionals". When people come on your/my boat, they put trust in me that my boat is seaworthy and that I know what I'm doing. They have no way of assessing this risk for themselves.

Although these people go through training, they have no idea and no way of knowing what the Southern Ocean is like until they're in it.

A few people have asked me over the years whether I would be up for skippering one, and my response is always that I can't think of anything worse than trying to skipper a boat full of amateurs around the world. all the gold in China wouldn't convinse me to do it (were I asked, which I haven't been).

A friend of a friend was on Greenings, signed up for the whole rtw and now continuing on a different boat. Interestingly said that a lot of crew were quitting along the way, something the organisers ‘do not advertise’. I am with the ‘we should all be free to take risks’ camp, but this does suggest that not everyone who signs up has a realistic sense of how horrible it will be (or I suppose that things are particularly bad this time).

 

[JumbleDuck]

Are you suggesting the possibility of an accident occurring should be prevented whatever the cost?

Nobody has suggested that, save perhaps as a straw man. The general aim with safety systems is ALARP - As Low As Reasonably Practicable. Note the word "reasonably". Nobody expects risk to be reduced to zero in anything, and what is reasonable will vary very much with context. When something does happen, it's important to examine the events leading up to it and ask whether there were reasonably practicable precautions which were missed. If there were, you put them in place. If not it was just an unfortunate occurrence about which nothing reasonable could have been done.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Training was part of it. So was the culture.

A sailing friend of mine went on a sail training ship (nothing to do with Clipper), where she found that the on-board culture was very different from the one promoted by the company. Very macho, very wearing-harnessses-is-for-wimps. Perhaps the company knew, but it seems more likely that it was down to the skipper, who set the atmosphere for the whole boat. Reminiscent of the TS Royalist incident, in which it seemed that rules about clipping on at height were regularly ignored, for various reasons.

Whatever Clipper think they are promoting in their four weeks on the Solent may not always be what is happening "out there".

 

[lw395]

It might make no sense from a position of not knowing all the facts. But if he had gone over when the vessel was doing say 10 knots, he would hav been dragged against the side of the boat and possibly with his head below surface and the forces involved would have left him powerless. He could have drowned within 2 or 3 minutes. The facts that his tether gave way and his body was recovered after 30 minutes would add more sense to a drowning scenario. One of the resuscitators a was a GP and his own idence will be key.

Surely a boat can be stopped in less than 2 or 3 minutes?

 

[lw395]

This is a very strange accident. I don't agree with LW395 you cannot possible lay the blame at this stage we do not know the facts. It makes no sense that he died even if he did end up on the water, he had everything he should have needed to ensure his survival. The difficult thing here is that no postmortem is possible.

We know some facts.
We know the boats are crewed by paying amateurs with less than half a term's training.
We know the boats are big, fast and hard work.
We know what oceans can be like.

From that, it's not hard to understand that mishaps will happen. And that a mishap in these circumstances is likely to be serious or fatal.
I don't think laying the blame on the skipper or the bloke on the wheel or any other crew member who could have prevented this death is helpful.
The problem appears to be within the concept and culture of the organisation.

 

[lw395]

I am not impressed anyone who drinks and drives. Even so I don't see the relevance. I think hitting a bit bellow the belt.
In my view he's done the crime been convicted and served his sentence. Its what he does from now on what counts.
He cant change his past. Hopefully he has changed his future actions.

Personally I think it is entirely relevant.
Organisations often have their cultures greatly influenced by their leaders.

Over the years I have known a few people get caught drink driving.
I can think of a couple who are fine people, but I'd not choose to be led by them.
Their perception of risk seems poor to me, this shows in other areas such as financial risk.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There is nothing strange or weird about this, dying is more likely than surviving in a MOB: drowning, heart attack, strangulation, impact trauma. There is nothing in the the story so far that suggests there is anything odd in this tragedy. I do not even think the amateur status is particularly relevant.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I do not even think the armature status is particularly relevant.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Humm well on a TV News channel last night is appeared to be stated that the boom struck him on his head during a maneuver so might I ask ?
If the crew are amateurs why are they NOT wearing head protection as a normal H&S requirement ?
Do these Companies think it sissy or something ?
Cripes man, get real, this a common incident aboard a Sailing Yacht in heavy weather, is it not ?

In fifty years sailing and some of it taking novice crews to sea (one Ocean leg with some crew who had only a couple of days sailing training. ) I don’t EVER remember myself or any of my crew being hit on the head by the boom.

Unless you count me climbing out of the companionway when at anchor to go for a pee and walking into it where a crew member had dinner truces it up as much as I was used to. A wee dram may have been involved...

Surely a boat can be stopped in less than 2 or 3 minutes?

Your remark makes me wonder how much experience you have of picking up MOB’s from large boats....

 

[lw395]

....
Your remark makes me wonder how much experience you have of picking up MOB’s from large boats....

My remark was in the context of a person being dragged on a tether. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the boat to be slowed down immediately if that should happen.
What drill do you use for the eventuality of somebody on a tether over the side, in the water?
Ours is STOP THE ... BOAT.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In Fifty years sailing and some of it taking novice crews to sea (one Ocean leg with some crew who had only a couple of days sailing training. ) I don’t EVER remember myself or any of my crew being hit on the head by the boom.

Nonetheless, I believe the statistics show it to be the most common cause of serious injury on a sailing yacht. I've been sailing for forty years (grandad) and I've never gone over the side ... but I still wear a harness and lifejacket.

But then, what risks we choose to take for ourselves are our own business. I never wore a parachute for flying gliders.

 

[lw395]

Being hit on the head by the boom is less likely on a bigger boat. The boom is higher.
It's also unmistakably massive, a crash helmet is probably not going to help much.
I don't think wearing a helmet for days on end in a wet environment is something I'd want to do.