Terrible news from Clipper

[Neeves]

BlowingOldBoots.

I would agree - the issue of keeping crew on board should be an integrated system not a series of totally independent items. Hopefully someone, or an organisation, can pick up the challenge and make some educated recommendations.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

BlowingOldBoots.

I would agree - the issue of keeping crew on board should be an integrated system not a series of totally independent items. Hopefully someone, or an organisation, can pick up the challenge and make some educated recommendations.

Jonathan

When you buy a car, by law, it comes with seatbelts, at least since the 50s in the US. Why arn't these systems integrated into the design before, for example, running rigging? The notion that jacklines must be stowed when not needed to protect them from UV is ludicrus and unforgivable. You see, they are only rarely needed:
* Night
* Alone on deck
* Stormy
* Sudden squall
* Cold water
* Inexperienced crew that might not be able to bring the boat back in a timely manner
* Chute up in a breeze

In other words, pretty darn often for boats that are sailed.

But this is off the Clipper thread. Or is it? Are the jacklines and hard points designed in, or are they an after thought? Since there are no hard points forward, I say afterthought.

 

[dunedin]

Sounds like Clipper have had another MOB on the Sydney Hobart. Off one of the old boats sailing as part of Invictus Challenge, so presumably had less training, and recovered safely with assistance from one of the main Clipper fleet.
But not the publicity RKJ will have wanted followingnhis recent interview on MOB safety.

 

[Blue Sunray]

[h=1][/h]http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Kg+force

So you don't know either? (Your link is to kgf, not kg)

 

[GHA]

So you don't know either? (Your link is to kgf, not kg)

http://bfy.tw/1FOB

 

[lw395]

Can someone/anyone translate these loads quoted in kg (mass) to a force? It seems an odd way to rate such items to me.

Kg force is just the weight of 1 kg, i.e. 9.8N.
But some things like tethers can be rated for dropping a mass through a distance then stopping it. Or absorbing a certain amount of energy.
Lots of opportunities for doublespeak and confusion.
It's not the weight of crew which breaks a tether, more likely the momentum or energy required to stop him.

 

[lw395]

I think the problem here is that certain people are falling on their tethers rather too often.
A tether should be a last line of defence, not something you plan to rely on routinely. I'm not talking about short-tethering yourself to the mast so you can use both hands, but losing control and being saved by the tether, which might work in 99% of circumstances.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I have patent pending on a totally unique type of lifeline / tether that will ensure safety by a much greater degree than any lifeline to date.

...

So at least someone has looked into designing a better device before this incident.

But ideas and even prototypes don't make money.

...

May have to end up in the public domain as 'open-source' knowledge to prevent others gaining a patent if they think of it at a later date.

So someone knew of the issue, but sat on it while they tried to make money out of it? Is that what I'm reading?
My understanding is that Volvo designed the first three point seat belt. They patented it, but then released it under free licence to any car maker who wanted to use it.
Sometimes the right thing to do isn't to look for the profit.

I think the problem here is that certain people are falling on their tethers rather too often.
A tether should be a last line of defence, not something you plan to rely on routinely. I'm not talking about short-tethering yourself to the mast so you can use both hands, but losing control and being saved by the tether, which might work in 99% of circumstances.

This is a race across the Southern Ocean. While the nay-sayers describe these people as passengers - the reality is they are working hard in conditions most of us wouldn't even stay aboard in the marina.

It is unfortunate that when something like this happen there seem to be individuals intent on finding fault or levelling criticism at the parties involved regardless of wether that is relevant to the circumstances of the incident.

We've had deaths before in yacht racing. Is the difference here because they are a coded boat they are being investigated by MAIB rather than handed over to the RYA/ISAF etc for investigation. Would a sailing assosciation be more likely to say "accidents happen when you you race in the ocean"

 

[Deleted member 36384]

...... Is the difference here because they are a coded boat they are being investigated by MAIB rather than handed over to the RYA/ISAF etc for investigation. ....

The RYA / ISAF will investigate internally on certain matters (such as incidents involving RYA Sea Schools) but for any incident in UK waters, coded or not, the MAIB may investigate, also for UK yachts abroad.

What we do

The MAIB investigates marine accidents involving UK vessels worldwide and all vessels in UK territorial waters.

 

[ShinyShoe]

The RYA / ISAF will investigate internally on certain matters (such as incidents involving RYA Sea Schools) but for any incident in UK waters, coded or not, the MAIB may investigate, also for UK yachts abroad.

I'm pretty sure I've seen MAIB hand over investigation to the RYA when it is a racing incident. (e.g. https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/cap...n-northumberland-england-with-loss-of-2-lives )

 

[Sailingsaves]

So someone knew of the issue, but sat on it while they tried to make money out of it? Is that what I'm reading?

No that is NOT what you are reading.

It takes time to develop a new product, especially a radically new one. That is the two years spent.

And one of the points I was making was that someone (i.e. me at least) has been thinking of designing a better something before accidents occurred.

But if you want to think such things, consider why Clipper have not got back to me? I know this works. It used to be my job as a product developer to take products and find ways of making them better. Civil servant pay. Made redundant. Dept outsourced to USA.

The road analogy someone made is good. How often does one see a ridiculously designed bit of road or road markings just after the road has been finished?

 

[lpdsn]

I believe the current set of regs MAIB works under are just a year or two old, although I'm not sure they differed that much from the previous set. It seems that it is a death on a coded boat that triggers an investigation, although they did also carry out an investigation on one private yacht whose owner died in an incident a few years ago (Lion).

My guess is that the MAIB are in a far better position to organise testing of tethers than the RYA or World Sailing. Given the thoroughness with which they investigated SOLAS lifejackets after the loss of the Louisa I would trust them to do it properly.

 

[Sailingsaves]

Did anyone understand what Sir Robin was describing as the work-around fix? Something about rope wrapped around a hard fitting?

Agree with a poster earlier on that the position of jackstays is of utmost importance and yet neglected in the minds of many.

 

[lpdsn]

So someone knew of the issue, but sat on it while they tried to make money out of it? Is that what I'm reading?
My understanding is that Volvo designed the first three point seat belt. They patented it, but then released it under free licence to any car maker who wanted to use it.
Sometimes the right thing to do isn't to look for the profit.

Much more likely to be a case of "inventor with new invention ignored by the world".

Anyway, you only have to look at a few threads on YBW to identify numerous yachtsmen singing the praises of something or other that was obsolete decades ago. It's not exactly a community of early adopters.

 

[Resolution]

When you buy a car, by law, it comes with seatbelts, at least since the 50s in the US. Why arn't these systems integrated into the design before, for example, running rigging? The notion that jacklines must be stowed when not needed to protect them from UV is ludicrus and unforgivable. You see, they are only rarely needed:
* Night
* Alone on deck
* Stormy
* Sudden squall
* Cold water
* Inexperienced crew that might not be able to bring the boat back in a timely manner
* Chute up in a breeze

In other words, pretty darn often for boats that are sailed.

But this is off the Clipper thread. Or is it? Are the jacklines and hard points designed in, or are they an after thought? Since there are no hard points forward, I say afterthought.

I like the concept that "staying on board" kit should be designed in to yachts from the outset.

But, the comparison with cars is not so valid. There are a lot more cars than yachts, there are greatly more casualties from cars than yachts, in cars these happen in full view of reporting media, in boats it is usually out at sea and difficult to report. I suspect that most yachting casualties are engaged in competition, not just ordinary consumers who need legislated protection. Has yachting got a Ralph Nadar about to spring on the scene? I doubt it.

 

[Sailingsaves]

To ShineyShoe:

Volvo would have been making quite a profit when they gave away the 3 point harness you mention.

It would possibly have been good for publicity (the fact you mention it proves that).

I don't think I have done anything morally unjust.

 

[lpdsn]

Did anyone understand what Sir Robin was describing as the work-around fix? Something about rope wrapped around a hard fitting?

Agree with a poster earlier on that the position of jackstays is of utmost importance and yet neglected in the minds of many.

Yes, basically wrapping a line around it to fill it up so nothing can catch. I've seen the same done on a racer to prevent sheets catching on a cleat.

I can't see how you can ever eliminate the possibility of a bit of sideways load on a clip. For example it would be stupid for me to try to lead the jackstays outboard of the shrouds, so if I go over the side on the foredeck the tether will probably come back that far before stopping. It'll probably not end up with a sideways load but nobody can guarantee that.

Sounds like the bloke who died was forward of the cleat when he went over and the line came aft until the clip caught. IIRC on the older boats the cleat was a fair bit aft of the bow, so maybe the same here. What are you going to do, terminate the jackstay aft of the cleat to avoid this risk and leave a whole section of the bow with no jackstay?

 

[savageseadog]

The obvious thing to do is attach to a high point

 

[lpdsn]

When you buy a car, by law, it comes with seatbelts, at least since the 50s in the US. Why arn't these systems integrated into the design before, for example, running rigging? The notion that jacklines must be stowed when not needed to protect them from UV is ludicrus and unforgivable. You see, they are only rarely needed...

Car seat belts are a simpler problem to solve. For a start they don't allow you to leave the wheel, walk 50' across the bonnet then work on the car whilst still travelling along the road.

 

[lpdsn]

The obvious thing to do is attach to a high point

Maybe an idea. It would have to be guaranteed to avoid any other line which is going to be difficult to say the least. Maybe something that runs outboard through a strengthened first spreader and could be controlled from the pit. Could still go horrendously wrong though if he gets tangled in a sheet or guy.