Teak faced ply that isn't really Teak faced ply.

[ip485]

Hmm a bit like describing chipboard as pine or whatever tree the chips come from.

 

[penfold]

But the Alpi teak veneer is made out of teak, just not a veneer cut from the log in the traditional way.

Definitely that; perusing their website shows that it's available in thicknesses between 0.4 and 2.8mm, so for robustness or to offer the possibility of refinishing you could pick something from the thicker end of the range. ALPI also do pre-finished veneer, so you could opt to skip the hugely tedious varnishing bit.

 

[HissyFit]

But the Alpi teak veneer is made out of teak, just not a veneer cut from the log in the traditional way.

Then all is good.

My mum has got a nice teak dining suite. When she passes it will either be sold for a nice price or be cut up for boat trim.

 

[Kilo]

Hmm a bit like describing chipboard as pine or whatever tree the chips come from.

Not at all, these engineered veneers are excellent giving consistent quality from a slightly more sustainable source.
Do not be fooled by an fsc label, we should not be using any tropical hardwoods other than reclaimed timber.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not at all, these engineered veneers are excellent giving consistent quality from a slightly more sustainable source.
Do not be fooled by an fsc label, we should not be using any tropical hardwoods other than reclaimed timber.

Not even sustainable plantation grown?

 

[Kilo]

Not even sustainable plantation grown?

Yup it's an interesting point, my sense is that there are two main issues with sustainable plantation growths -
There isn't enough volume to replace old growth forest denuded through centuries of industrial exploitation and the existence of "sustainable" tropical hardwoods masks the much larger trade in old growth timber that is still being logged throughout Thailand & Mianmar.
I think of forestry as analogous to the marine environment; exploited by industry and consumers; in desparate need of regeneration. Fish farms are problematic, ditto hardwood plantations. However fish have a much shorter/faster life cycle & as long as they're not fished to extinction will be able to regenerate much faster.
I'm hopeful that engineered bamboo produced with non toxic bonding will provide part of the solution.

 

[Scotsailor]

But the Alpi teak veneer is made out of teak, just not a veneer cut from the log in the traditional way.

I’m not sure if that is correct. I believe the product is reconstituted wood. … but I think teak refers to the style and design rather than the timber used.

 

[Concerto]

I'm hopeful that engineered bamboo produced with non toxic bonding will provide part of the solution.

Bamboo is a member of the grass family and certainly grows faster than any timber. The fastest growing can increase by up to 48" in a day and the largest variety's diameter is 12". It is a very good for some uses, but does have some problems. Back in the 1970's my father was involved with bamboo in many areas of the world and trying new uses. The most successful at that time was woven bamboo boards 2400x1200mm made in Thailand, which was later badly copied in China. It was and would always be a labour intensive process and meant is was a premium product used mainly for decoration purposes. The largest problem was getting the glue to successfully bond to the bamboo, followed by the timber industry having everything geared to a plentiful supply of timber. The supply of timber has now dropped compared to the demand, but the glue problem may now be solved with further research. Compared to timber the bamboo boards were very tough and waterproof, but were never smooth and used a huge amount more of the glue compared to plywood. This will never change due to the structure of the bamboo. There were trials in Taiwan at trying to produce a bamboo chipboard, but the glue cost stopped production as it cost too much to make. I had always thought that the timber industry should have investigated bamboo as a material, but it just seemed like an alien material that was not a tree and had a hollow centre, so was bulky to handle for the small volume of material that could be used as the outer and inner skins had to be disposed of (read burnt).

 

[ip485]

Not at all, these engineered veneers are excellent giving consistent quality from a slightly more sustainable source.
Do not be fooled by an fsc label, we should not be using any tropical hardwoods other than reclaimed timber.

Yes, but a different argument. I am not disputing they are consistent and more sustainable, but it isn’t teak. You shouldn’t claim something to be what it is not. In a way this does more damage to both products, the teak because it suggests you are selling something which you should not, and the teak substitute because you feel the need to call it teak when it is not which would tend to make people suspicious it’s a poorer product or you want to charge the same price.

I probably just lean to sustainable teak forests. We’re they not to exist we probably wouldn’t have wonderful forests of teak. The tree would gradually become very rare. There is clearly a market and as long as the market will pay an exceptional price then perhaps it’s a good thing we have forests that take far longer to mature capturing more carbon and sustaining a more developed eco system.

I consider myself very lucky my interior is all teak, and sorry in some ways a lot solid. It is beautiful. Would I select teak again - actually no, but then times change.

 

[Concerto]

There has been a tightening of illegal imports of teak with big fines.
Crack-down on illegal teak imports sees German company fined - Marine Industry News

 

[Kilo]

Bamboo is a member of the grass family and certainly grows faster than any timber. The fastest growing can increase by up to 48" in a day and the largest variety's diameter is 12". It is a very good for some uses, but does have some problems. Back in the 1970's my father was involved with bamboo in many areas of the world and trying new uses. The most successful at that time was woven bamboo boards 2400x1200mm made in Thailand, which was later badly copied in China. It was and would always be a labour intensive process and meant is was a premium product used mainly for decoration purposes. The largest problem was getting the glue to successfully bond to the bamboo, followed by the timber industry having everything geared to a plentiful supply of timber. The supply of timber has now dropped compared to the demand, but the glue problem may now be solved with further research. Compared to timber the bamboo boards were very tough and waterproof, but were never smooth and used a huge amount more of the glue compared to plywood. This will never change due to the structure of the bamboo. There were trials in Taiwan at trying to produce a bamboo chipboard, but the glue cost stopped production as it cost too much to make. I had always thought that the timber industry should have investigated bamboo as a material, but it just seemed like an alien material that was not a tree and had a hollow centre, so was bulky to handle for the small volume of material that could be used as the outer and inner skins had to be disposed of (read burnt).

That's a v good summary of the issues around bamboo board production, however the industry's developed massively since the 70's. If its worth engineering v small section softwoods into only slightly larger components (I'm not talking gluelam beams) then at some point the production of boards & other stock that shares most of the properties of increasingly rare hardwoods must become economically viable? Fingers crossed.

 

[Kilo]

Another issue with bamboo is tooling - it kills it

 

[ip485]

I have just been looking at some of the bamboo ply boards you can buy now.

I am very impressed. They present beautifully and I can see could be incorporated into many projects giving a contemporary and fresh feel.

I have no idea what it is like to work with? I assume it is bonded with an epoxy, so is very water resistant and stable?

PS Yes I can imagine very hard on tools, and carbide may be the way to go if you were working volume.

 

[Kilo]

Yes, carbide, hss spindle & router tooling doesn't last

 

[Kilo]

& I wouldn't go near it with my bench chisels

 

[ip485]

Yes chisels and conventional craftsman’s tools to be avoided at all cost I am sure.

Clearly very hard to work.

I do some work with carbon fibre as a hobby and it can be an utter nightmare although very satisfying. I have just crafted a solid carbon fibre and Kevlar chess board and set.

On the up side with design forethought larger sheets, square cut lines (which some would say are more contemporary) and it should be possible to design an interior with fewer cuts, more bonding, and very hard wearing and long lasting. Personally I hate a lot of the cheap veneer used today, it looks ok for a while, but never the same once it’s chipped, and not looked after. It’s finish also doesn’t lend itself to repairs which in other materials can seem as much a part of the patina, with veneers, it just looks, well chipped and tatty.

 

[doug748]

Production of most derivative wood boards and reconstituted timbers uses so much energy and plastics you might as well fit Formica. -)

One answer may be to use plantation timber which should be possible on a 40 year cycle. However getting people to invest now is impossible while present controls remain so leaky.

The real fix is to find other timbers especially for the more mundane things like interior cabinet work and keep the use of all man-made board to a minimum.

Here is a very good article by Jessie Rogers whose yard started looking seriously at this over 10 years ago:

The dirty truth about teak - Yachting Monthly

.

 

[Kilo]

Production of most derivative wood boards and reconstituted timbers uses so much energy and plastics you might as well fit Formica. -)

One answer may be to use plantation timber which should be possible on a 40 year cycle. However getting people to invest now is impossible while present controls remain so leaky.

The real fix is to find other timbers especially for the more mundane things like interior cabinet work and keep the use of all man-made board to a minimum.

Here is a very good article by Jessie Rogers whose yard started looking seriously at this over 10 years ago:

The dirty truth about teak - Yachting Monthly

.

It is an excellent article, worth putting it up as a thread in its own right?

 

[ip485]

There is no perfect solution, because it seems to me we arent clear what the problem is. Are we most concerned about sustainable forests, is it the use of resins in the bonding agents, is it the energy involved in the production process, is it the politics, so the list goes on. There are those that say a sustainable forest is vital, but teak forests can be sustainable and teak plantation may be ecologically more friendly than other fast growth timber production. Clean energy may become less of a concern as its availability is significantly ramped up, not that I am sure what green energy means any more. I did some work with a heat pump company. We all, thanks in part to their advertising, are convinced this is super green. Shiny badges all round please. The owners when asked had rueful smiles, fortunately no one asks about all the energy and raw materials used in making this stuff and invariably shipping it around the world and its life expectancy. My conventional old fashioned boiler is a quarter the price, almost nothing ever goes wrong, may well last 50 years, and was made in the UK using no fancy chips, miles of copper, etc etc. How true and where the balance really lies I haven’t got a clue, but I increasingly know we need to be clear what the problem is we seek to solve.

The article appears to dismiss teak because it can’t be sustainable. Really? What do we even mean by sustainable. Is a product more or less sustainable if it ends up in something else that will last 50 or 60 years, or be left gathering mould in boatyard in 30 years?

I would draw a similar analogy with electric cars. I hope I am wrong but I am not sure we are thinking this through. Lots of exotic products, rare metals, battery packs with dubious life spans, etc. Hydrogen intuitively seems better the way production is changing, because it’s hugely more energy dense than batteries are, or likely to become, and in every other aspect is simple.

I don’t suggest I have a single answer, but I do think we must see the wider picture and not be taken in my often industry centric solutions that aren’t concerned with the wider picture, but are concerned with short term commercial gain.

 

[ip485]

BTW and apologies if this is slightly drifting now, but on the theme of sustainability of teak, my biggest gripe and I think the single most significant contributor to our environment, is helping us all to keep things longer. I know we want big and cheaper boats, but it’s no good if marinas fill up with bigger, cheaper but unused and unloved boats.

Why would you design a boat where the main tank in 30 years time may cost 1/8 th the value of the boat to cut out and replace?

My daughter's washing machine developed a small fault that could well be a home plug in repair in less than 9 months. Ah yes you say, still under warranty. That’s until you realise there is a new baby, how difficult it is to get a service call out, and how many of us aren’t prepared or able to dump it on the suppliers door step. So the temptation is to dump all that technology for a 50 p switch.

Manufacturers should be brought more into line that repairs must be easy and realistic, not today but far into the future, and there is genuine value in sustainable products because people will want to proudly own them for years to come. We should all try to purchase products on the basis of quality and as far as possible, what will still give us please well into the future. Manufacturers should also be unencouraged to amke products upgradeable so we dont throw away perfectly good parts. Every piece of electrical equipment we buy comes with a new plug (except the iPhone now). A plug lasts just about for ever. OK, its a small thing but what are we thinking everytime we chuck away that plug with its copper and plastic into landfill and replacing it with an identical plug that probably is hidden anyway. Why do we hand out plastic bags at all. String bags have been used for years, work perfectly well and contain no plastic. Small items might well drop through but they need to be very small and I am sure we can stuff these in pockets. They are small things, but I ask you how many plugs end up in land fill in the UK alone?

PS no argument from me if the wire is frayed but Apple plugs avoid this, and, in any event I havent unplugged my washing machine or dishwasher since the day it was plugger in. Not much fraying there me thinks, it will be the as good the day it was plugged in, as when it is next unplugged!