Teak decks on an affordable old sailing boat - avoid like the plague?

[Simon F]

Lots of good advice on the decks but why the long keel? Plenty of seaworthy moderate fin keel boats that track well, sail faster and handle under power MUCH better.

I’ve had both and sailed lots of boats with long keeks and lots of board with fins of various shapes and designs. Lightweight racy boats with high aspect fibs are a PITA on ocean crossings but plenty of moderate fin keeled boats look after you just as well as any long keeled boat.

I understand that long keels have a following but my theory is it’s because of a mistaken mythology promoted by a few. In reality boat design moved on for a reason. (Some of it to do with what is possible when you don’t build in a traditional way with wood!)

Apologies for drifting your thread. .

No apology necessary John. I appreciate the interest. Here's my thinking and tell me if you disagree. Essentially it's about money. I'm not looking at long keel boats because I believe a long keel is superior or is a 'must have' but because, in my price range, it seems to be cost effective to buy a boat that has had most of the big ticket items renewed by previous owners and on perusing the market for 10m cruisers at 20-25k which are likely to be a going concern rather than 'an easy project' and with the stipulation that the boat needs to be good in a bit of a sea and ok to live on for a few weeks or months at a time for one person, I seem to be able to get a very heavy traditional hull boat like a (Nicholson/Halmatic/Rustler/Elizabethan/Contessa) which has been cherished and pampered by a long term owner, or a light boat Beneteau (320/Moody29/Hanse 301) which has been similarly upgraded but which don't seem like they would be pleasant in chop or at anchor let alone in a storm. I've yet to find a 'best of all worlds' boat which doesn't seem like it wants 20k spent on it to 'restore it to it's former glory' The best buys I've seen so far in the mid ground seem to be Westerly Konsorts with fin keels but I'm open to suggestions. Sadler 32 maybe? Fulmar? Simon.

 

[Simon F]

No apology necessary John. I appreciate the interest. Here's my thinking and tell me if you disagree. Essentially it's about money. I'm not looking at long keel boats because I believe a long keel is superior or is a 'must have' but because, in my price range, it seems to be cost effective to buy a boat that has had most of the big ticket items renewed by previous owners and on perusing the market for 10m cruisers at 20-25k which are likely to be a going concern rather than 'an easy project' and with the stipulation that the boat needs to be good in a bit of a sea and ok to live on for a few weeks or months at a time for one person, I seem to be able to get a very heavy traditional hull boat like a (Nicholson/Halmatic/Rustler/Elizabethan/Contessa) which has been cherished and pampered by a long term owner, or a light boat Beneteau (320/Moody29/Hanse 301) which has been similarly upgraded but which don't seem like they would be pleasant in chop or at anchor let alone in a storm. I've yet to find a 'best of all worlds' boat which doesn't seem like it wants 20k spent on it to 'restore it to it's former glory' The best buys I've seen so far in the mid ground seem to be Westerly Konsorts with fin keels but I'm open to suggestions. SAdler 32 maybe? Fulmar? Simon. p.s. I'm not used to forums; am I supposed to reply in a new post?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

IMO Avoid old boats and especially avoid old boats with teak decks.

Long keeled boats were built that way because that was the only way wooden hulls could support a suitable amount of ballast - and the first fiberglass boats evolved from their wooden bretherin - so the hull shape lived on. Since then, hulls have evolved further, materials have improved and long-keelers are not built any more - in the modern world they don't tend to wend their way through packed marinas very easily either and sailing performance in a more modern hull will also be better - as will space below decks.

Long keelers have a habit of hobby-horsing through waves which allows the bow to submerge and scoop oodles of green water up, running down the decks and draining through the anchor locker into the bilges (older anchor lockers, if the boat had one, tended to drain into the bilges rather than directly back into the sea - which creates problems below with mud and salt-water making its way inside the boat.) To minimise hobby-horsing, chain may even have been stored under the forward bunks to try and bring the weight aft. It also means the first foot or so of the hull (the bit that collides with things) is mission critical, but a modern seperate anchor locker can be breached without sinking the boat.

Older boats also didn't have comparmentalised balsa cores, or closed-cell foam so if water got in anywhere it could rot over a huge area. Beware spongy decks.

Chain-plates were often glassed in, making them impossible to inspect and expensive to replace - many areas of the hull are inaccessible from the interior.

Things were also built into the deep V shaped hulls, tanks for fuel and water, and the bilges filled with filth which slowly seeps into the keel from the inside. Keels could also be filled with iron ballast which rusts over time and slowly splits the keel open from within.

You get the idea, but if you must have a long keeled older boat, it pays to be aware of the common issues. They do look nice and have that undefined quality born of nostalgia for times past - so each to their own - museum pieces have a lot of old-world charm.

But boatbuilders have learnt an awful lot over the last 50 years as more and more boats get built and break, sink, or rot. IMO go for as modern a boat as you can afford with the sailing characteristics you enjoy.

Go into the purchase with open eyes and don't fall for the oft quoted myths, namely, "only a long-keeled boat is seaworthy" and "they don't build them like they used to".

I'd say, it's a good thing that they don't build them like they used to.

Good luck with your search!

 

[john_morris_uk]

No apology necessary John. I appreciate the interest. Here's my thinking and tell me if you disagree. Essentially it's about money. I'm not looking at long keel boats because I believe a long keel is superior or is a 'must have' but because, in my price range, it seems to be cost effective to buy a boat that has had most of the big ticket items renewed by previous owners and on perusing the market for 10m cruisers at 20-25k which are likely to be a going concern rather than 'an easy project' and with the stipulation that the boat needs to be good in a bit of a sea and ok to live on for a few weeks or months at a time for one person, I seem to be able to get a very heavy traditional hull boat like a (Nicholson/Halmatic/Rustler/Elizabethan/Contessa) which has been cherished and pampered by a long term owner, or a light boat Beneteau (320/Moody29/Hanse 301) which has been similarly upgraded but which don't seem like they would be pleasant in chop or at anchor let alone in a storm. I've yet to find a 'best of all worlds' boat which doesn't seem like it wants 20k spent on it to 'restore it to it's former glory' The best buys I've seen so far in the mid ground seem to be Westerly Konsorts with fin keels but I'm open to suggestions. Sadler 32 maybe? Fulmar? Simon.

I think your thoughts are eminently sensible. Westerly Fulmar, Nicholson 32 etc would be my goto. However I’m very hands on and do 99% of work on our board myself. In fact next time I re-rig I’ll almost certainly go for Sta-Lok fillings and just buy the wire rather than pay a rigger.

 

[Simon F]

IMO Avoid old boats and especially avoid old boats with teak decks.

Long keeled boats were built that way because that was the only way wooden hulls could support a suitable amount of ballast - and the first fiberglass boats evolved from their wooden bretherin - so the hull shape lived on. Since then, hulls have evolved further, materials have improved and long-keelers are not built any more - in the modern world they don't tend to wend their way through packed marinas very easily either and sailing performance in a more modern hull will also be better - as will space below decks.

Long keelers have a habit of hobby-horsing through waves which allows the bow to submerge and scoop oodles of green water up, running down the decks and draining through the anchor locker into the bilges (older anchor lockers, if the boat had one, tended to drain into the bilges rather than directly back into the sea - which creates problems below with mud and salt-water making its way inside the boat.) To minimise hobby-horsing, chain may even have been stored under the forward bunks to try and bring the weight aft. It also means the first foot or so of the hull (the bit that collides with things) is mission critical, but a modern seperate anchor locker can be breached without sinking the boat.

Older boats also didn't have comparmentalised balsa cores, or closed-cell foam so if water got in anywhere it could rot over a huge area. Beware spongy decks.

Chain-plates were often glassed in, making them impossible to inspect and expensive to replace - many areas of the hull are inaccessible from the interior.

Things were also built into the deep V shaped hulls, tanks for fuel and water, and the bilges filled with filth which slowly seeps into the keel from the inside. Keels could also be filled with iron ballast which rusts over time and slowly splits the keel open from within.

You get the idea, but if you must have a long keeled older boat, it pays to be aware of the common issues. They do look nice and have that undefined quality born of nostalgia for times past - so each to their own - museum pieces have a lot of old-world charm.

But boatbuilders have learnt an awful lot over the last 50 years as more and more boats get built and break, sink, or rot. IMO go for as modern a boat as you can afford with the sailing characteristics you enjoy.

Go into the purchase with open eyes and don't fall for the oft quoted myths, namely, "only a long-keeled boat is seaworthy" and "they don't build them like they used to".

I'd say, it's a good thing that they don't build them like they used to.

Good luck with your search!

Thanks for your thoughts BaggyWrinkle. I'm not a nostalgic type in the least and I'd rather have the liveability of a modern boat but having previously sailed on a Wauquiez 32 and a Beneteau First 29, the first seemed a lot more seaworthy and steady at anchor although the latter was a lot nicer in the harbour. Could you give me a few suggestions of newer type 10m boats that fulfill my requirements of a boat which can be had, in good condition, for 25k? Simon.

 

[Supertramp]

IMO Avoid old boats and especially avoid old boats with teak decks.

Long keeled boats were built that way because that was the only way wooden hulls could support a suitable amount of ballast - and the first fiberglass boats evolved from their wooden bretherin - so the hull shape lived on. Since then, hulls have evolved further, materials have improved and long-keelers are not built any more - in the modern world they don't tend to wend their way through packed marinas very easily either and sailing performance in a more modern hull will also be better - as will space below decks.

Long keelers have a habit of hobby-horsing through waves which allows the bow to submerge and scoop oodles of green water up, running down the decks and draining through the anchor locker into the bilges (older anchor lockers, if the boat had one, tended to drain into the bilges rather than directly back into the sea - which creates problems below with mud and salt-water making its way inside the boat.) To minimise hobby-horsing, chain may even have been stored under the forward bunks to try and bring the weight aft. It also means the first foot or so of the hull (the bit that collides with things) is mission critical, but a modern seperate anchor locker can be breached without sinking the boat.

Older boats also didn't have comparmentalised balsa cores, or closed-cell foam so if water got in anywhere it could rot over a huge area. Beware spongy decks.

Chain-plates were often glassed in, making them impossible to inspect and expensive to replace - many areas of the hull are inaccessible from the interior.

Things were also built into the deep V shaped hulls, tanks for fuel and water, and the bilges filled with filth which slowly seeps into the keel from the inside. Keels could also be filled with iron ballast which rusts over time and slowly splits the keel open from within.

You get the idea, but if you must have a long keeled older boat, it pays to be aware of the common issues. They do look nice and have that undefined quality born of nostalgia for times past - so each to their own - museum pieces have a lot of old-world charm.

But boatbuilders have learnt an awful lot over the last 50 years as more and more boats get built and break, sink, or rot. IMO go for as modern a boat as you can afford with the sailing characteristics you enjoy.

Go into the purchase with open eyes and don't fall for the oft quoted myths, namely, "only a long-keeled boat is seaworthy" and "they don't build them like they used to".

I'd say, it's a good thing that they don't build them like they used to.

Good luck with your search!

I think the OP is thinking on the right track - teak decks are an incidental to finding the boat that works for him. A good Fulmar or Sadler would work well.

The long keel debate is endless but I would consider how to steer offshore - hand, autopilot, wind vane or all 3. A fin/skeg design is plenty seaworthy and stable. Older boat sterns suit wind vanes - you don't see many on drop down transoms!

My long keel doesn't suffer the problems you list but equally nor would a fin/skeg. Perhaps it's the displacement and shape that matters more.

 

[Wansworth]

Tony Curphry sailed wtworld Ina nic 32

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for your thoughts BaggyWrinkle. I'm not a nostalgic type in the least and I'd rather have the liveability of a modern boat but having previously sailed on a Wauquiez 32 and a Beneteau First 29, the first seemed a lot more seaworthy and steady at anchor although the latter was a lot nicer in the harbour. Could you give me a few suggestions of newer type 10m boats that fulfill my requirements of a boat which can be had, in good condition, for 25k? Simon.

Perhaps this? ... Sail Away and everything pretty new. Might even appeal to your aesthetic.

Mystery 30 Mk II

https://www.foxsyachts.co.uk/boats-for-sale/2011-mystery-30-ipswich-suffolk-united-kingdom-9431514/

 

[mrtoomanytoys]

Well... (Hands up, total yacht novice here).. I picked up a really nice Westerly Conway bilge keel, 36ft in that kinda price bracket..
Yeah, needs a little work here and there. Nothing insurmountable and stuff that would have to be done on any boat at some time... But no teak deck..

From what I could gather, they are a gentle boat to sail and perform exceeding well in rough conditions by all accounts...quite well appointed and roomy.. (from my perspective)..
I did scope out a Westerly 33 (can't remember the model name at mo) similar design that would be in that price bracket too..

Good luck..

 

[doug748]

No apology necessary John. I appreciate the interest. Here's my thinking and tell me if you disagree. Essentially it's about money. I'm not looking at long keel boats because I believe a long keel is superior or is a 'must have' but because, in my price range, it seems to be cost effective to buy a boat that has had most of the big ticket items renewed by previous owners and on perusing the market for 10m cruisers at 20-25k which are likely to be a going concern rather than 'an easy project' and with the stipulation that the boat needs to be good in a bit of a sea and ok to live on for a few weeks or months at a time for one person, I seem to be able to get a very heavy traditional hull boat like a (Nicholson/Halmatic/Rustler/Elizabethan/Contessa) which has been cherished and pampered by a long term owner, or a light boat Beneteau (320/Moody29/Hanse 301) which has been similarly upgraded but which don't seem like they would be pleasant in chop or at anchor let alone in a storm. I've yet to find a 'best of all worlds' boat which doesn't seem like it wants 20k spent on it to 'restore it to it's former glory' The best buys I've seen so far in the mid ground seem to be Westerly Konsorts with fin keels but I'm open to suggestions. Sadler 32 maybe? Fulmar? Simon.

A full, long encapsulated keeled GRP boat has a number of advantages, as you say but I would not discount the skeg designs with long, encapsulated, fin keels. They can be almost as directionally stable, a little bit more swift and handier under motor in a tight spot.

Either way if you choose carefully you can forget about recaulking, dodgy keel bolts, rust, and weeping into the bilge. These designs hold their course under way, and take well to autohelm or wind vane steering. They are not needy under sail, rarely slam and suit light handed sailing very well.
My pick would be a Rival 34, lots about, available at most price points.

100% agree - to get something that is sailing now and needs a bit of upgrading and avoid anything described as a project unless it is an immaculate Halberg Rassy with a blown up engine.

.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for your thoughts BaggyWrinkle. I'm not a nostalgic type in the least and I'd rather have the liveability of a modern boat but having previously sailed on a Wauquiez 32 and a Beneteau First 29, the first seemed a lot more seaworthy and steady at anchor although the latter was a lot nicer in the harbour. Could you give me a few suggestions of newer type 10m boats that fulfill my requirements of a boat which can be had, in good condition, for 25k? Simon.

Much as I agree with Baggywrinkle's sentiment having owned both types, your budget precludes you from decent modern 10m boats - you need another £10-15k. That still leaves you with lots of choice in addition to long keeled boats. Fulmar, Westerly 33/Discus, Sadler 32 and 34, Moody 33 variants, Rivals. If you want character and not fussed about speed then a Golden Hind 31 like mine might suit or its half sister Barbican 33.

Not sure that certain types of boat rather than others end up for sale in the condition you seek. More likely the seller will be "aged" and bailing out either through ill health or the boat has got too much or both. Most will be well worn and as you say need same again spending on them, but you do find the odd one like mine where the money has been spent and the owner is running out of time to get full enjoyment out of the boat and all its new gear.

 

[Blueboatman]

You want a newer engine ( and ideally a newer mast and sails.)

On a cautiously slightly overbuilt hull and deck with an acceptable amount of interior space. From a builder or hull moulder who had the years of experience to work out all the grp detailing, quality control and assembly.

The rest is just carpentry or painting or buying bolt-on goodies.. IE Discretionary rather than obligatory expenditures..

Remember, that £25k budget could be a £40k simple boat selling to a nice chap like you.
Or a osmosis ridden shagged out mast and boom, tired sails, aging diesel engined, marginally constructed thing that swallows money faster than a thirsty sailor at happy hour.

 

[fredrussell]

I would say that the one boat that no one on here seems to have a bad word for is the Westerly Fulmar. Should be a fair few for sale in or around OP’s budget as Westerly sold bloody loads of them - which says a lot about them. Personally I’d pick a bilge keeler as I like drying out up some festering east coast mud hole, but to each their own.

 

[Simon F]

I would say that the one boat that no one on here seems to have a bad word for is the Westerly Fulmar. Should be a fair few for sale in or around OP’s budget as Westerly sold bloody loads of them - which says a lot about them. Personally I’d pick a bilge keeler as I like drying out up some festering east coast mud hole, but to each their own.

Thanks Fred. I know what you mean, but I think the Fulmar is just out of reach in the sense that I'm convinced it's best to buy a boat that's in really good state of renewal and every Fulmar I've seen seems really in need on investment. The Konsort is available with recent sails and standing rigging and a replacement engine for 20k and they seem to be in better cosmetic nick too but maybe they've had an easier life in the Solent while the Fulmars seem to take more of a beating. The gel coat on both the Fulmars I have viewed in person was very degraded on the coachroof and the cockpit. Why is that I wonder. U.V? Also, keeping the headlinings up seem to be a sisyphean task. Maybe a Sadler 32 though. Or a 29?

 

[Wansworth]

Thanks Fred. I know what you mean, but I think the Fulmar is just out of reach in the sense that I'm convinced it's best to buy a boat that's in really good state of renewal and every Fulmar I've seen seems really in need on investment. The Konsort is available with recent sails and standing rigging and a replacement engine for 20k and they seem to be in better cosmetic nick too but maybe they've had an easier life in the Solent while the Fulmars seem to take more of a beating. The gel coat on both the Fulmars I have viewed in person was very degraded on the coachroof and the cockpit. Why is that I wonder. U.V? Also, keeping the headlinings up seem to be a sisyphean task. Maybe a Sadler 32 though. Or a 29?

Friend bought a Fulmar and it haddroppingheadlining…he used that plastic wall sheathing which is hollow ,lookedeally good and not too difficult to apply