Teak deck questions.

[Seven Spades]

I bought my boat in 2007 when it was 11 year old and the teak deck was fine. I sold the boat last week and the deck is still fine even though the boat is now 22 years old. On Sunday of last week we went to look at a possible successor which was built in 2008 and it's teak decks were very low with the claulking proud of the deck.

I am interested in this for two reasons as it appears on the face of it to indicate that modern teak is a lot softer than that fitted in the 1990's but maybe not. My boat was just used for summer holidays and pottering around the south coast whereas the boat we look at has been a live aboard for 9 years and has been around the world.

So the questions are:-

Does teak just wear down over time of its own accord or is the lowness of this deck simply because it has been in continious use or the climate?

How do you estimate the time remaining before a deck needs renewal or does it sound as though that time has been reached? The present owners bought the boat from new and do not appear to have scrubed the deck at all.

 

[duncan99210]

I'd have said that irrespective of their declarations, they've scrubbed the deck on a fairly regular basis. Caulking standing proud of the deck is typical of wood being worn away by scrubbing with the grain.

 

[Seven Spades]

You coudl be right, but the surface of the wood seems smooth and I thought that scrubbed decks looked rough where the soft wood is scrubbed out of the grain.

 

[pvb]

A lot depends on how the teak is stuck to the deck, and how much thickness is remaining. It's possible to cut off the excess caulking and then lightly sand the deck to restore a smooth surface, but this will inevitably remove a small amount of teak. If the teak has been screwed down, with plugs over the screws, there'll come a time when it's not possible to re-surface the teak as the screws will be exposed.

What make/model of boat is it?

 

[pmagowan]

We are in the process of replacing our Teak deck a section at a time. It was 12mm thick and had been ‘restored’ (sanded down) at least once before. It was running out of thickness in places.
Old forest Teak was better than the plantation Teak that is often sold today where the trees are faster growing and cut young. Teak will wear slowly if looked after but if scribed or sanded by someone who likes the look of new Teak then it will wear quickly. I like my Teak to look weathered but not green. People use patio magic or similar to kill green and then ordinary sea water to wash. A good cover will significantly reduce wear and increase lifespan

 

[johnalison]

My teak is now 18 years old and has never ever been scrubbed. Nevertheless. the caulking is proud over much of the foredeck, though the side-decks are almost as new. I have an idea that the more frequent walking on the sides helps to compress the wood and make it stronger, but I have no evidence. I have also heard that plantation teak is more open and wears faster. As things are, my caulking could do with some attention now. In 20 years the wood may need sanding down a bit, so I think the deck has some forty more years of life, which should see me out.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

I'd either look at a different boat or get an awful​ lot of money off the price to cover very expensive replacement!

 

[pvb]

I'd either look at a different boat or get an awful​ lot of money off the price to cover very expensive replacement!

Yes, a good replacement teak deck is eye-wateringly expensive, not to mention a fairly lengthy process. I had quotes of £25-30K a few years ago for a new deck on a Hallberg-Rassy 352.

 

[pmagowan]

It is worth it. And you do get a good discount if the deck is a bit scruffy. Remember that once it is done the boat will look brand new and will be far superior to the one with an ok deck that was 20k more expensive. You get to live with the nice new deck!

 

[KellysEye]

When our teak deck was getting worn I had it removed, there was marine ply glued to the deck and the teak was screwed to it. This was heavy displacement steel ketch and when all of it was removed the boat was two inches higher in the water, it was seriously heavy.

 

[BrianH]

I bought my boat in 2007 when it was 11 year old and the teak deck was fine. I sold the boat last week and the deck is still fine even though the boat is now 22 years old. On Sunday of last week we went to look at a possible successor which was built in 2008 and it's teak decks were very low with the claulking proud of the deck.

I am interested in this for two reasons as it appears on the face of it to indicate that modern teak is a lot softer than that fitted in the 1990's but maybe not. My boat was just used for summer holidays and pottering around the south coast whereas the boat we look at has been a live aboard for 9 years and has been around the world.

So the questions are:-

Does teak just wear down over time of its own accord or is the lowness of this deck simply because it has been in continious use or the climate?

How do you estimate the time remaining before a deck needs renewal or does it sound as though that time has been reached? The present owners bought the boat from new and do not appear to have scrubed the deck at all.

Teak wood varies enormously in its quality and everything depends on what was obtained by the original builder and from whom and from where.

Contrary to popular belief, teak is not one of the true 'hard' hardwoods, its reputation as such from the quick blunting of saws used in cutting is due to the level of silica absorbed in the wood, not the wood's hardness. It is, in fact, quite soft - its marine applications rest solely on the oil content that protects against rot - and it wears, particularly between the annual grain rings, very quickly.

Once supplied from mature trees of 50 to 100 years of growth out of the natural forests of India and Burma but is now harvested as a plantation crop all over the world and where, on productivity grounds, a fast-growing variant is cultivated. Indonesia specialises in this where it is called 'Jati Genjah', which is typically cut at only 10 years of growth, although rarely used by boatbuilders but usually for garden furniture. On most plantations it is rarely harvested with over 20 years of growth, resulting in an inferior quality because there is little heartwood, the densest and oil-rich part, nor is there the weight of a large tree to compress the cellular growth rings as they form.

So it very much depends on the original sourcing and if genuine mature forest teak - unlikely. However, there is plenty still available as research - especially by the think-tank Chatham House - has revealed that a vast amounts of hardwood, especially from Africa and Asia, even FSC labelled products, are illegally logged and falsely certificated. Burmese and Indian teak is being imported into China and re-routed around the world wrongly labelled as sourced from certified producers.

In 2012 I was damaged while anchored in Croatia when dragged down on by a larger vessel in a 60 knot bora gale that, by smashing my stanchions down, split the massive teak capping rail (see below) into which their pins were set. When being repaired in my Italian marina boatyard I never expected to get the same quality teak and was surprised when I saw the finished work - it was indeed every bit as solid and dense as the 1980 original sections either side of it. Knowing the local supplier and what he had available I asked the workman from where it had been obtained ... all I could get from him was a knowing wink.

 

[Rikds]

Teak wood varies enormously in its quality and everything depends on what was obtained by the original builder and from whom and from where.

Contrary to popular belief, teak is not one of the true 'hard' hardwoods, its reputation as such from the quick blunting of saws used in cutting is due to the level of silica absorbed in the wood, not the wood's hardness. It is, in fact, quite soft - its marine applications rest solely on the oil content that protects against rot - and it wears, particularly between the annual grain rings, very quickly.

Once supplied from mature trees of 50 to 100 years of growth out of the natural forests of India and Burma but is now harvested as a plantation crop all over the world and where, on productivity grounds, a fast-growing variant is cultivated. Indonesia specialises in this where it is called 'Jati Genjah', which is typically cut at only 10 years of growth, although rarely used by boatbuilders but usually for garden furniture. On most plantations it is rarely harvested with over 20 years of growth, resulting in an inferior quality because there is little heartwood, the densest and oil-rich part, nor is there the weight of a large tree to compress the cellular growth rings as they form.

So it very much depends on the original sourcing and if genuine mature forest teak - unlikely. However, there is plenty still available as research - especially by the think-tank Chatham House - has revealed that a vast amounts of hardwood, especially from Africa and Asia, even FSC labelled products, are illegally logged and falsely certificated. Burmese and Indian teak is being imported into China and re-routed around the world wrongly labelled as sourced from certified producers.

In 2012 I was damaged while anchored in Croatia when dragged down on by a larger vessel in a 60 knot bora gale that, by smashing my stanchions down, split the massive teak capping rail (see below) into which their pins were set. When being repaired in my Italian marina boatyard I never expected to get the same quality teak and was surprised when I saw the finished work - it was indeed every bit as solid and dense as the 1980 original sections either side of it. Knowing the local supplier and what he had available I asked the workman from where it had been obtained ... all I could get from him was a knowing wink.

Which is sad. As a boatbuilder I adore teak both for its look and rot resistance however I am painfully aware that illegal logging will eventually remove the last of these magnificent trees from the forests. It is interesting that boatbuilders are not the biggest users of teak in the world. Nonetheless it is incumbent on us to be mindful of the sources of the materials we choose to use. There are alternatives, albeit not quite as good looking. No doubt these too will become endangered.
Think carefully about materials used and spare a thought for the loss of wonderful resources such as teak. How sure are you that the knowing wink was not just a nod the the illegal use of a finite resource?

 

[Seven Spades]

Hmm, the boat we are looking at is 47 feet so it will cost an awful lot to replace.

I find it difficut to buy a used boat because I don't know if the price reflects the condition or should I seek a reduction for what is obvious wear and tear. It is really difficult to know because it's not like cars where you can view 10 and get a good idea of price/condition. For example the rigging is due a replacement the sellers have aknowlegdged that. This is a stunning boat but it needs a mini re-fit. I doubt if I get everything done that it woudl enhance the boat by much so is that the key to this question. Shouid I be looking for the difference between the costs of the remedial work and the enhanced value?

 

[Tranona]

Hmm, the boat we are looking at is 47 feet so it will cost an awful lot to replace.

I find it difficut to buy a used boat because I don't know if the price reflects the condition or should I seek a reduction for what is obvious wear and tear. It is really difficult to know because it's not like cars where you can view 10 and get a good idea of price/condition. For example the rigging is due a replacement the sellers have aknowlegdged that. This is a stunning boat but it needs a mini re-fit. I doubt if I get everything done that it woudl enhance the boat by much so is that the key to this question. Shouid I be looking for the difference between the costs of the remedial work and the enhanced value?

No. You will never enhance the value to others by the cost of a refit. You can only decide on the basis of whether the total cost of purchase and refit represents value to you. You might perhaps compare that with alternatives that you can buy for the same money, but inevitably the decision is personal.

No different from any other purchase except that there is a degree of uncertainty about the final cost if there is significant work involved in the refit because no matter how careful you are in your estimates it will almost certainly cost more and take longer. However, if you buy a boat that needs little work, or better still a new boat you know that the total cost will be closer to the purchase price. Another issue is your time horizon -the longer you intend to keep the boat the longer you will benefit from the extra expenditure. If you sell quickly you are effectively giving the enhanced value in consumption terms at little cost to the purchaser.

Our thinking about boats tends to assume they are assets with a fixed value, whereas they are an asset whose value you consume by using it - just like a car. You don't use it up as quickly as a car, but the usage is higher in the early years of ownership, whether it be new or used - the latter because of the dilemma you face of large expenditure after purchase to deal with the repairs and replacements the previous owners have avoided. Teak decks are afine example of this. the thought of replacing it may well be a deciding factor in the sellers decision to sell!

 

[pmagowan]

Boats are not financial investments. They are investments in happy experiences. You need to work out what is right for you. You don’t want to be ripped off, of course. Have a look on the inter web for similar boats and see what they go for. You want to take into account what you can get with little work needing done and then work out the value. If a deck needs replaced the seller will struggle to find someone who wants to put in the time and money and so you will likely get it a lot cheaper than one with a deck that might last another 5-10 years. If you can get it 25k cheaper then you have a new deck more or less in the bag and a much better boat for it! If it was me I would be more interested in what you will end up with and how it suits your use. A boat fitted out to your style and preference with a nice new deck will cost a lot less in the end as a retrofit and hold a good part of its value

 

[pvb]

Hmm, the boat we are looking at is 47 feet so it will cost an awful lot to replace.

I find it difficut to buy a used boat because I don't know if the price reflects the condition or should I seek a reduction for what is obvious wear and tear. It is really difficult to know because it's not like cars where you can view 10 and get a good idea of price/condition. For example the rigging is due a replacement the sellers have aknowlegdged that. This is a stunning boat but it needs a mini re-fit. I doubt if I get everything done that it woudl enhance the boat by much so is that the key to this question. Shouid I be looking for the difference between the costs of the remedial work and the enhanced value?

I only sold my Hallberg-Rassy because I felt that it was 3 or 4 years away from needing a replacement teak deck. Cost estimates (for a 35 footer) were £25-30K, and I reckoned it might enhance the resale price by maybe £5K. I was in my late 60s, so probably wouldn't have kept the boat for the 15 years or so to get the value out of the new deck. So I sold it. The buyer got a lovely boat, well cared for, with good sails, good equipment, at a bargain price.

If you think the deck on the boat you're considering is nearing replacement, get a rough quote for the cost, then negotiate hard.

 

[BrianH]

Which is sad. As a boatbuilder I adore teak both for its look and rot resistance however I am painfully aware that illegal logging will eventually remove the last of these magnificent trees from the forests. It is interesting that boatbuilders are not the biggest users of teak in the world. Nonetheless it is incumbent on us to be mindful of the sources of the materials we choose to use. There are alternatives, albeit not quite as good looking. No doubt these too will become endangered.
Think carefully about materials used and spare a thought for the loss of wonderful resources such as teak. How sure are you that the knowing wink was not just a nod the the illegal use of a finite resource?

Rikds, thank you for a response that is encouragingly responsible and realistic about a very important issue - the loss of the world's forests on an industrial scale that make the carbon credits plan for tree planting look absurd on a scale comparison.

The "knowing wink" was interpreted as a recognition that the teak section may not have been obtained from the very correct, sustainable forest, FSC local supplier who specialises in timber for the region's boat-builders - although I know there are some suppliers who have 40+ year-growth plantation teak; I just didn't see any when I visited the previous year to buy some mahogany. My old HR is stuffed full with it and I needed a length to cover a join where I had renewed a veneer-faced panel. To get the length I had to buy a thick piece of planking, which was cut to the correct dimension for me while I kept what was left for future jobs. Anyway, this obvious plantation-grown length was surprisingly light in both weight and colour, although clearly mahogany from the reddish grain structure. Incredibly, I had to use a mahogany stain before varnishing, just to get it to match and look like mahogany!

You are correct in pointing out that boat-builders are not the major culprits in de-forestation - far from it. Like the products of the rapacious fishing industry, a large proportion of hardwood timber production goes to Japan for building, furniture and flooring.

A recent study by Chatham House estimates that nearly half the tropical logs, sawn timber, and plywood traded worldwide was illegal. In Indonesia, one of the world’s largest timber producers, more than 80% of logs are cut illegally and that 100m cubic metres of illicit timber are still stripped from forests each year. Logging companies over-harvest within the boundaries of legally granted lands or deliberately misidentify prohibited tree species as legal ones. In addition government corruption is a perennial problem, with murky licensing procedures often masking illegal timber concessions.

I personally have witnessed the illegal clearing of mature trees in SE Asia, particularly Indonesia, with the associated burning of the discarded brushwood, for the dual profit of hardwood timber together with land clearance for the serried ranks of palm oil plantations. It is not just the planet's lungs we are tearing out, entire animal species are losing their only possible natural habitats.

 

[johnalison]

I personally have witnessed the illegal clearing of mature trees in SE Asia, particularly Indonesia, with the associated burning of the discarded brushwood, for the dual profit of hardwood timber together with land clearance for the serried ranks of palm oil plantations. It is not just the planet's lungs we are tearing out, entire animal species are losing their only possible natural habitats.

It's a depressing situation isn't it? The problem is partly unthinking demand from consumers, and partly corruption almost everywhere. One might think that somewhere like Australia would be well managed, yet there was exposure of the corruption there leading to stripping of Tasmania's unique forest. I like to think that HR are big enough to source ethically for my boat but there is little that many of us can do except trust our suppliers and support those agencies which are involved.

 

[peter gibbs]

Some years ago I sat with a senior government politician in a S Asian country and bemoaned the logging and deforestation problem. His Answer? What would you have me say to the people for whom this is the only source of income?

I doubt it was the only source, but fishing, rice, etc ??

Paradoxically, the more expensive these natural resources are priced, the faster we find alternatives. We need to be priced out of destructive habits.

PWG

 

[BrianH]

It's a depressing situation isn't it? The problem is partly unthinking demand from consumers, and partly corruption almost everywhere. One might think that somewhere like Australia would be well managed, yet there was exposure of the corruption there leading to stripping of Tasmania's unique forest. I like to think that HR are big enough to source ethically for my boat but there is little that many of us can do except trust our suppliers and support those agencies which are involved.

Thanks for that, I hadn't heard of the Tasmanian case but it mirrors an experience I had in Canada. Back in 2003, I had to make a business trip to Montreal and Toronto. Consequently, I found myself one morning sitting at a window seat on the upper deck of an Air Canada 747-400, gazing down at a familiar landscape of Quebec that I knew from almost 50 years before, although in a different world of comfort.

Then, it had been while serving with the RCAF and approaching the same destination of Dorval from Goose Bay, Labrador. I distinctly remember thinking that with the forests stretching to the horizon for hour upon hour, no way could the warnings of the emerging green brigade, of the dangers of resource depletion, ever come to pass here, the area was just too vast.

How wrong I was for, almost a half-century later, I was looking down at the same landscape but I was seeing a very different terrain from what I remembered – this was earth and rock, sometimes a lake ... but few trees, only scrub, a large area of north-eastern Quebec had been denuded.

Later, while attending a conference in Montreal, I learned about an emerging scandal of illegal logging concessions sold by past Quebec provincial government officials, even possibly ministers, and speculation of upcoming prosecutions. None of this seemed to reach the world's news media – or indeed, come to pass, as I subsequently could not trace any further information about it.

As you so correctly point out, if this could happen in a first-world society with a strong rule of law (although severely flawed in the days of the Duplessis provincial government), what is happening in Nigeria, Cameroon, Brazil and Indonesia? In Canada, the timber was relatively inexpensive softwoods but an entire region was still stripped; what then of the valuable hardwoods of Asia, Africa, central and south Americas where the local populations are poor and logging companies can buy whatever, wherever and whomever they want.