TAMD63P’s versus 370hp D6

[petem]

Apologies if this has been covered before but is there much difference in terms of refinement underway between TAMD63P’s and 370hp D6? Boat is a Phantom 40. I know that the D6 is a more modern engine and therefore more economic and cleaner.

Thanks.

 

[Bandit]

The 63 P is a mechanical turbocharged work horse a good solid lump. Production stopped about 12 years ago. You can rebuild them from scratch if the block is ok. a good reliable lump, I would have thought the Phantom 40 went well with them. I had a pair in a Fairline Sedan 36 about the same size and weight as a P 40 cruise 23 to 25 knots with the right props tops 30+, mine was slightly over propped.

I have same engines in an Aquastar 48 for the last 9 years, very reliable.

The D6 is the current replacement an electronic, common rail engine, easily replaceable as a bobtail or with gearbox, a reliable lump if fully and regularly maintained by a VP dealer. With a major problem you cant replace the liners so a short block or a replacement lump is the only answer. A fabulous response and a flat torque curve. D6 rated up to 435 hp on shafts.

In my mind either would do the job adequately in that boat.

 

[petem]

The 63 P is a mechanical turbocharged work horse a good solid lump. Production stopped about 12 years ago. You can rebuild them from scratch if the block is ok. a good reliable lump, I would have thought the Phantom 40 went well with them. I had a pair in a Fairline Sedan 36 about the same size and weight as a P 40 cruise 23 to 25 knots with the right props tops 30+, mine was slightly over propped.

I have same engines in an Aquastar 48 for the last 9 years, very reliable.

The D6 is the current replacement an electronic, common rail engine, easily replaceable as a bobtail or with gearbox, a reliable lump if fully and regularly maintained by a VP dealer. With a major problem you cant replace the liners so a short block or a replacement lump is the only answer. A fabulous response and a flat torque curve. D6 rated up to 435 hp on shafts.

In my mind either would do the job adequately in that boat.

Thanks Bandit that pretty much sums up what I thought. My issue is that one of the members of my boat purchase syndicate is concerned about refinement and I'm keen to know if this is justified. Personally I suspect that underway there is little difference, particularly at low cruise speed. There's also a big difference in cost, the later D6 boats are £50k dearer in the Med.

Incidentally if anyone reads this and know of any Med spec Phantom 40's coming on the market in the next couple of months, please let me know.

 

[scubaman]

I would add that in terms of refinement, soot might be a consideration. Especially if you have plans to store a dinghy on the swim platform.

 

[benjenbav]

Taking into account Bandit's and scubaman's comments, I am afraid that I see your syndicate being pushed towards the D6 version.

Personally, I am a fan of mechanical engines and almost mourn their passing into history. But the nature of the beast aligns them with the owner-operator who has a tool chest full of "Snap On" products and an expert on hand on speed-dial. Tbh, for that owner half the fun is getting ahead of the trials and tribulations.

Your syndicate man (and woman) wants to turn up in pastel casual-wear, turn the key and go with an experience not far removed from the Merc/Beemer/Audi in which they drove to the airport.

 

[Whitelighter]

Your syndicate man (and woman) wants to turn up in pastel casual-wear, turn the key and go with an experience not far removed from the Merc/Beemer/Audi in which they drove to the airport.

Hey, it's too late for me to join Pete's syndicate...

 

[henryf]

We had 63P's in our Phantom 42 then D6 435's in our Princess P42.

Of the two I much preferred the D6. Electronic throttles which got round the problem of stiff controls, good power delivery but above all clean burning with no black smoke on start up or build up on the transom / bathing platform.

Henry

 

[Whitelighter]

I think most TAMD63s were ordered with the electronic controls.

Agree about the soot though. I'd have D6s all being equal but if it really is a £50k premium then I'd go for 63s. Is some of the Prium not newer boat though...

 

[baylabayla3288]

I would add that in terms of refinement, soot might be a consideration. Especially if you have plans to store a dinghy on the swim platform.

I had the 63Ps in my previous boat, a Phantom 38, and the major plus point of these engines is the solid performance, reliability of the basic engine and the smooth running. I put 700 hours on mine going from 400 to 1100 without even adding oil between the annual service intervals. If you go for the 63Ps there are 3 weak spots that can easily be checked and serviced.

1. Depending on the year model, some had prematurely failing of some of the raw water hoses. Replace them priort to taking the boat into use and address any chafing as some pipes are subject to mechanical stress.
2. Replace the external high pressure oil lines (the one supplying oil to the injector pump and the once connected to the oil cooler in the back of the engine)
3. On some models the raw water pump gear can suffer damage, have it checked/ replaced

The above issues are really minor but have to be addressed proactively.

And yes, with the 63Ps, be prepared to wash the transom frequently. This can be reduced by having the injectors in good order, ensuring tha the boat is not ower propped and by using higher quality fuel. I noted a big reduction of start up smoke when using winter grade diesel.

 

[Latestarter1]

Apologies if this has been covered before but is there much difference in terms of refinement underway between TAMD63P’s and 370hp D6? Boat is a Phantom 40. I know that the D6 is a more modern engine and therefore more economic and cleaner.

Thanks.

Not being a V.P person but having been a regular visitor Deutz when the D6 was under development slightly surprised by negative slant from posters with experience of the engine.

Compared to 63 the D6 is lighter 134kg, has better power delivery, torque curve is far nicer and has more real power rating Vs rating, far more sociable, pretty much zero smoke from start up to rated load, did have the numbers but 40% quieter at WOT was quoted attributable to the rear chain drive to the cam a feature I really disliked and I predicted would cause problems, but time has proven me wrong.

Judging from the numbers it should be a no contest, faster, better out of the hole performance, zero smoke, dramatically quieter at idle and WOT, what am I missing?

 

[volvopaul]

The price of a rebuild puts me off , compared to a rebuild on a 63p.
New short motor is 12k plus gaskets etc.
Rebuild kit for 63 is less than half that.
In past years sea water pump is a failure from new on some units, there more expensive to service, the coolers fail at 4/5 years old.
Already a few people have pooled there resources to take up and demand costs back from Volvo for premature corrosion issues , failing coolers , cp pumps and injectors resulting in total engine failure. Not the best advert for sure.

 

[John100156]

The 63's on my boat are solid reliable lumps. I have Morse controls. They are 15 years old, start within a second or two, don't burn much oil, never overheat BUT as others have said, they do smoke a bit and I have to clean the bathing platform regularly. I have my dinghy on the bathing platform too which, when on a long trip, I remove its cover and invert to protect the underside and tubes ;-(

If I had a choice of two identical price 'good condition' boats, I would go for the D6's, £5k difference same decision, £5-10k difference not sure, over £10k I would go for the 63's and buy SWMBO a nice new shiny extendable brush... .

 

[Bandit]

My Fairline with 63Ps had new Volvo Penta throttle/gear units (morse cable type) and were OK if properly set up, current boat has electronic Volvo Penta EC controls which are beautiful to use and can be changed with your little finger.

Soot on the transom depends on many factors especialy exhaust discharge points and air flow, dont phantom 38's have a swan neck and discharge under the water?

 

[Latestarter1]

The price of a rebuild puts me off , compared to a rebuild on a 63p.
New short motor is 12k plus gaskets etc.
Rebuild kit for 63 is less than half that.
In past years sea water pump is a failure from new on some units, there more expensive to service, the coolers fail at 4/5 years old.
Already a few people have pooled there resources to take up and demand costs back from Volvo for premature corrosion issues , failing coolers , cp pumps and injectors resulting in total engine failure. Not the best advert for sure.

That was exactly the sort of information I was looking for........

Why no piston oversize repair procedure is nuts and and durability of marine hang on bits is inexcusable when vaunted as a purpose built marine engine, failures of the CP pump and injectors is installation related every time. I do predict that Volvo will have to abandon copper injector sleeves, looking at new Japanese designed D8 tech package, bet they have gone now.

 

[petem]

The price of a rebuild puts me off , compared to a rebuild on a 63p.
New short motor is 12k plus gaskets etc.
Rebuild kit for 63 is less than half that.
In past years sea water pump is a failure from new on some units, there more expensive to service, the coolers fail at 4/5 years old.
Already a few people have pooled there resources to take up and demand costs back from Volvo for premature corrosion issues , failing coolers , cp pumps and injectors resulting in total engine failure. Not the best advert for sure.

Thanks Paul, and everyone else, for your comments. Very useful.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but could a 63 be rebuilt in situ (with new liners) or is it a workshop job?

 

[Divemaster1]

Thanks Paul, and everyone else, for your comments. Very useful.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but could a 63 be rebuilt in situ (with new liners) or is it a workshop job?

Not many people (or companies) would consider a in-situ rebuild as realistic in a sub-50 foot boat ... space/access to key areas (Crankshaft & clamshell bearings etc., may be very difficult and you may burn less time actually lifting the engine out and having the work done in a workshop. Basically, If you need to lift (raise) the engine to get access underneath, then you may be better to lift out.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Thanks Paul, and everyone else, for your comments. Very useful.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but could a 63 be rebuilt in situ (with new liners) or is it a workshop job?

Pete, seriously, why on earth do you want to know about the possibility of an in-boat rebuild of an engine your boat-share partners won't consider, that hasn't actually broken down, in a boat you haven't bought yet? Or offered on? Or even gone to view?? Just sayin... (again)

 

[baylabayla3288]

Soot on the transom depends on many factors especialy exhaust discharge points and air flow, dont phantom 38's have a swan neck and discharge under the water?

No, the Phantom 38 has large diameter outlets just above the waterline which makes the boat pulling a soot-steam mixture behind it. In bad conditions under heavy load the black soot not only covers the transom but also the back of the radar arch.

This leads to another issue I had with which was exhaust noise. The Phantom can be quite noisy on the flybridge when light and with certain trim angles. After experiencing the extremely silent Ferretti underwater exhaust it makes me wonder why everybody is not fitting these. I actually had some plans to convert the Phantom to underwater exhaust but it turned out that the back pressure could have been too much. To be on the safe side the large mufflers would have had to be removed. After adding a sound damping material called Thinsulite (used by Princess) in the engineroom and blocking all openings between the Saloon and the the engineroom the Phantom went from reasonable silent to very silent in side. To my surprice when removing the back rest pillows from the sofa one could actually see through to the engine room. Blocking these and some additional openings behind the closet in the rear port corner made a big difference.

 

[petem]

Pete, seriously, why on earth do you want to know about the possibility of an in-boat rebuild of an engine your boat-share partners won't consider, that hasn't actually broken down, in a boat you haven't bought yet? Or offered on? Or even gone to view?? Just sayin... (again)

Lol, my question was pure curiosity, absolutely zero relevance on my boat hunting!

In fact, my thought was that the cost of a full re-build or replacement block (including labour) is going to be £10k for the former and £15k (my guess) for the latter so not a great difference percentage wise. For VolvoPaul, the parts cost would be more significant as his labour would be free to himself. Make sense?

 

[Bandit]

Rebuild of a 63p or any such engine is a workshop job.

The engines come out of the patio doors with A Hiab.