Tacking in narrow channels and congested waters.

Re: I do it...

Colregs only give general circumstances which must be taken in conjunction with others.

Rule 18 clearly says :

"A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of....a sailing vessel. "

Also constrained by draft and limited in it's ability to manoeuvre can come into play.

I can't seem to find one that says a yacht must take it's sails down and motor coming up the river so a boat under power can go in a straight line. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

(And I emphasise that I am talking about a boat under power encountering a sailing boat - I have spotted you have a ketch - if you have taken your sails down you are a power boat. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif)

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Re: I do it...

I've sailed onto a mooring bouy at itchenor twice now in the last couple of weeks - interesting to see that other people just have to watch, so the pressure is really on.. I got in no ones way and the HM even commented that it was nice to see it done. Strong tide, down wind so not too hard, wouldn't tack down there, in fact wouldn't tack anywhere in the harbour, engine into wind for me..

Ian

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Substance over form

Interesting debate.
Col Regs are clear.
Power gives way to sail.
It is however, a question of manners and consideration for others out on the water.
In the same way that a car towing a caravan down a winding lane has every right to do so, one hopes that the driver would recognise the inconvenience to other road users and adopt a strategy that minimised the inconvenience.
So surely on the water, it is one thing to have rights but another to have consideration for others.
Of course the definition of a narrow channel depends on the eyes of the beholder.

Also, I wonder what the attitude of the yacht in question would be if he was anxious to return to his berth and found himself behind others sailing in front of him.

<hr width=100% size=1>74.56% of all statistics are made up.
 
Re: I do it...

>>If the channel is wide enough for the sailing yacht to be tacking up in the first place, then any power driven vessel of similar or smaller size is most definitley NOT in a "narrow fairway"! <<

That doesn't follow. If you have local knowledge then you can often stray well outside the marked channel at certain times, but as a visitor it isn't possible to avoid the weekend congestion and assess how much water is available - the visitor is pretty much limited to staying within the marked channel. I'm just getting to grips with the approach to Chichester Marina during congested periods and I find some of those under sail, presumably with local knowledge, to be very inconsiderate.

Then there are the death-wish dinghy brigade who think you can stop 16 tons in 6 feet and stay still in a 15m channel with a cross tide and wind!! I don't think they are very bright individuals.

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Re: I do it...

I once had to tack up my trouser leg They were'nt too bad cos they were flares although it was directly into the wind. Had no option cos I had to get to work to earn some beer money. Hope that helps!

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Re: Tacking in narrow channels and congested water

At the risk of repeating what some others have said, as a regular user of the Orwell - my boat is moored on it - I frequently see folk tacking both up and down the river and don't really see it as a problem. There's plenty of river and I usually think, "I just wish I had the time to sail home rather than motor, but I'm mindful of the 200 miles I have to drive when I get ashore." On occasions, when time permits, I have tacked all the way home, and one day when my engine failed just off Felixstowe Trinity dock I was quite happy to get some canvas on and tack into the weeds all the way to my mooring near Pin Mill.

Some points made in the original post are fair; some are not. Someone shouting "Water!" at me would be wasting their breath; I had no idea what it meant until I saw it in this thread and have never seen or heard it mentioned in any shorebased or practical sailing course. Surely one of the sins committed by said HR skipper was using lingo some of us might not understand.

The original poster is clearly misguided about col regs but does have a point about impolite standing on. But in the same way as it's unfair to damn all mobo types because a few of them are inconsiderate, it's a bit of a leap to damn all skippers tacking in a river on account of one fool encountered.

There's plenty of room on the Orwell at most states of the tide; the intentions of a vessel tacking are pretty clear to read, and I'm often thinking things like, "Let's just ease up a bit here as this guy ahead looks like he's going to have to tack any second." I suggest that Sinbad has a go at it himself; it's actually quite good fun! Even in the Orwell rush-hour on a Sunday afternoon, if done carefully and considerately, it doesn't incur any unnecessary risk.

I consider my engine is primarily for getting in and out of congested berths; every time I crank it up to save time or make progess in very light winds I wish I wish I didn't have to. Coming out of the Deben in July I saw two biggish yachts havin a chat midstream. They were obviously agreeing, "Last one home buys the drinks," for no sooner out of the river than they both stood off to seaward in the southwesterly wind. Me, with my low-performance, poor-pointing boat, decided to motor home; the two big 'uns began tacking south until one gave up. Other fellow carried on and sailed all the way to the Royal Harwich at Woolverstone, sailing all the way up the river and passing me about a mile from home. I raised my hat in appreciation of a smart pit of skippering which I couln't have equalled. Pretty sure it wasn't Sinbad unless his boat is called "Something Bear".

Regards, Mudhook

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Re: Tacking in narrow channels and congested water

Hello,

Just thought I would add my opinion to this matter. I frequently sail up the Orwell as far as wind and depth will allow me. Whilst I would never dream of shouting at any other river users (unless they were being complete idiots), I can see no problem with sailing up the Orwell even at its most congested. The channel is wide and normally there is reasonable water to either side of the main channel. Surely it is easier for boats under motor to give way to yachts sailing? It really normally only requires slowing down a little and a little forward planning. Equally, yachts need to be aware that they are under obligation to avoid collisions, and must not over estimate others knowledge of col regs, and realise the limitations that weather and tide places on all boaters.

At the end of the day sailing boats are for sailing, and I have always liked the site of yachts beating up the Orwell - I am certain that with proper caution and courtesy all river users can co-exist.


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Re: I do it...

Thank God someone has brought some sanity into this debate, Jimi - frankly it was all getting a bit tacky.

- Nick




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Re: I do it...

Yes, and I am stuck on the sidelines as an envious onlooker 'cause I can't find any muddy creeks around here to get tacky in.

John

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JJ
I agree with you ALMOST totally, but (and I think I'm going to get flamed for this) if your engine has packed up then you have every right to tack back to your mooring BUT what gets my dander up is the "I'm a die hard sailor type, defaced blue, bretton cap and brass buttons" and I insist on short tacking up this narrow channel and I don't give a flying f*** about any other water users, I don't care if it's conjested and I'm causing all sorts of problems, I'm going to short tack come what may, even thou' I have a perfectly good engine.

IMHO it's all about consideration for other water users, we can't as a forum moan about inconsiderate actions of mobo's, PWC's and other raggies if we then adopt the attitude of "I have a perfectly good engine that will start at the press of a button but I'm not going to do that, I'm going to short tack up this NARROW fairway, shout water to any one that comes close, wave my fist at them and generally shout abuse just because I want to sail"

I'm sorry but IMHO it shows a distinct lack of seamanship and consideration for our fellow boaters.

YES by all means practice short tacking for emergencies in narrow channels but not when they are full.

If your engine has packed up don't shout water, shout sorry my engines packed up, you'll be surprised at the (nice) reaction you get.

If I'm motoring and come across a boat short tacking I don't have a problem, I will stay out of his way. My problem comes when I've got boats astern of me and boats ahead of me all needing my attention while this wally with a perfectly good engine is causing mayhem because he is insisting on short tacking up a narrow fairway.

Rant over, now I wait to get flamed!!!!

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"I'm a die hard sailor type, defaced blue, bretton cap and brass buttons" and I insist on short tacking up this narrow channel and I don't give a flying f*** about any other water users, I don't care if it's conjested and I'm causing all sorts of problems, I'm going to short tack come what may, even thou' I have a perfectly good engine."

I rarely see those guys with any sail up at all. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif They are usually motoring (mobos and raggies) down the middle of the channel not giving a s**t.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.
 
Thank you everyone for the comments.

Its interesting that the col regs don't give a definition for a narrow channel/fairway and I would suggest that any seaway/waterway that is confined by buoyage or banks is in fact a narrow channel. Whether it continues to be a narrow channel in specific circumstances will then depend upon the vessels using it. Any ship going up the Orwell or any other river is in a narrow channel. Whether the same can be said for a S&S 34 is unlikely (within the meaning of the col regs). Thus somewhere in-between is the answer and that will all depend upon the circumstances at the time.

However it is important that sailors realises that the right to carry sail AND have right of way will change with the circumstances. It is not a blanket 'right' and to use this 'right' requires not only an ability to sail ones boat effectively in the given situation, but it also requires a knowledge of the characteristics of the boats around them and how they will behave in the wind/tide of the time and what restrictions those conditions are placing upon the other vessels.

I would love to tack my boat up the Orwell, beating back to my berth.....but to do so in a 28 ton ketch with just myself and my wife as crew would not only be in breach of the col regs, it would be negligent. To do the same in a Contessa 32 would not.

I agree that there is much pleasure to be had from sailing your boat well in crowded waters, balancing wind tide and other boats and threading through it all with no fuss. Having sails up however does not give any of us an absolute right over other vessels.

Well thats my lot for now........see you on the river.....'water water....can't you see I'm racing you bloody fool'.

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Re: I do it...

No-one has tried to define 'narrow channel' in this discussion. I'm with those that say the Orwell isn't narrow at all (unless upriver of the bridge), and so tacking up it for me is a non-issue - I just do it.

Having said that, if I see one of those ruddy great steamers coming up or down, then I remember my colregs about contrained by draught and stay in the edges of the channel until it passes.

15M motorboats with a draught of a few feet can work their way around me.

And yes, maybe my racing background means I'm not bothered sailing in close proximity to other yachts - changing to cruising recently I cannot believe how nervous some people get when I'm within 100M of them.

Before I'm accused of being the type that shouts Water etc, nope, not guilty. Never once shouted at another boat who doesn't follow the rules. Just shake my head and hope they read up sooner rather than later.

What does the original the original poster think of the Crouch? Should that too be off limits for tacking?

Cheers,

David

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Re: I do it...

Ooooh definitely too narrow for anyone to tack up, I'd put my motor on at outer crouch personally :P

On a more serious note, people always moan about dinghies getting too close/bombing up and down channels etc without taking notice of anyone else.

Having been (and still am) a dinghy sailor I can assure you that every one of them is very aware of the 15M motor yacht that is coming towards them because they know full well that if you hit them their beautiful hi-tech dinghy is mincemeat. A close pass for a dinghy is about 6 inches, not 10M which is what your average yottie/mobo man thinks. It might be disconcerting, but considering they can turn on a sixpence and are basically an extension of the sailor's body its really nothing to worry about when they come close.

Unless of course its a sailing school fleet of Picos with pink sails, in which case get out of there or put some fenders out! :-S

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Re: I do it...

As a regular visitor to the Orwell as a mobo owner, I do not think that the Orwell is too narrow for tacking (or less a large ship is passing). I love to see the yachts sailing the Orwell and with common sense they are no problem at all to pass.

But...."Having been (and still am) a dinghy sailor I can assure you that every one of them is very aware of the M motor yacht that is coming to wards them because they know full well that if you hit them their beautiful hi-tech dinghy is mincemeat. A close pass for a dinghy is about 6 inches, not M which is what your average yottie/mobo man thinks. It might be disconcerting, but considering they can turn on a sixpence and are basically an extension of the sailor's body its really nothing to worry about when they come close."

IMHO 6" for a close pass is not the best idea or less you can give clear signals of your intentions.

The thought of a dinghy sailor being tipped overboard at the crucial moment does not bare thinking about with two large props going around. Getting so close does not give any visibility of the dinghy and whats going on to the skipper.

Planing boats often draw less than a metre (I draw 0.8)and tide and wind-age means they cannot just sit still on water like a heavy displacement boat or yacht with a large keel.

Perhaps you should try a mobo one day and then see if 6" is a close pass or not.....!



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Re: I do it...

>>On a more serious note, people always moan about dinghies getting too close/bombing up and down channels etc without taking notice of anyone else.

Having been (and still am) a dinghy sailor I can assure you that every one of them is very aware of the 15M motor yacht that is coming towards them because they know full well that if you hit them their beautiful hi-tech dinghy is mincemeat. A close pass for a dinghy is about 6 inches, <<

When I am navigating a narrow channel in a 16 ton yacht drawing 2m, under power, and a dinghy gets to the point of being a collision risk then the Colregss oblige me to take avoiding action. Usually this means going astern, losing way and placing my vessel at the risk of being swept onto shoal areas. Regardless of the Colregs, what else can I do? How do I know whether the skipper is a bright young thing fully on the ball or a couple of old ****s who simply wanted to exercise their 'rights' (as happened to me a week ago in the very narrow approach channel to Chichester Marina)? As others have said, 6" is not good enough unless you have managed to communicate with the other skipper - but personally I wouldn't trust nods, waves, calls or any signal other than a call on the VHF.

Please don't forget that even if there IS plenty of water at the time, the yacht might not know the profile of the bottom if he is a visitor. Nobody can commit a profile to memory from the chart and carry out the sort of pilotage required for an entry to an unfamiliar harbour. Please don't assume that the yacht has that local knowledge. Even if you recognise the yacht as being local, it might be under the command of someone who is not local at any given time - lots of people lend or charter their yachts.

Please assume that larger boats are constrained to the marked channel - because very often that's what the skipper believes, and that's all that counts.

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After around Levington marina, particularly at low tide I would say the Orwell is a pretty narrow river to tack in considering the volume of traffic it takes on a Summer weekend. I had a mooring on this river and on two occasions found my boat to be scraped and bumped . During the week no problem and good education to fine tune our sailing skills.

When it is crowded and with the wind on the nose most take their sails down around Levington towards Ipswich. Most would call this good seamanship and consideration for others and not a display of lack of skill.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who constantly have to inflate their ego’s with showboating to the biggest crowd possible whether it is on the water or contributing to yachting forums. They have lost the will to give, and my advice is to keep well clear of these people and try to die young at a very old age.

Life is a battlefield and we are all walking wounded.


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