Swiss Boat Register

[petem]

Unfortunately, in my hunt for a boat, I'm having to learn more about foreign boat registers than I care. I now know a little about the Spanish Registry but I've noticed that some Med boats are on the Swiss Register. Does anyone know if the Swiss Register records Liens and Encumbrances as I believe the Spanish and UK Part 1 Registers do?

 

[Whitelighter]

Surely a question for W&M Pete?

 

[petem]

Yep but too early to involve them. I'm sure someone here can give me a heads up.

 

[Portofino]

No Pete .
Reg designed to give Swiss citizens afoat - the ability to show they are "neutral" in times of war .-that's all it does .

 

[MapisM]

some Med boats are on the Swiss Register

As long as they are in the Med, they can hardly be in territorial Swiss waters, I reckon...!
Just wondering, based on what Portofino said, how could a bank consider a CH flagged boat as a collateral worth taking, if anyone could simply de-register it and re-flag it.
Maybe in these cases the bank asks the original docs of the boat and keep them in their files? Just a thought.

PS: otoh, keeping a (relatively) big, twin engined diesel boat on a lake, weird as it might sound, is not unusual in CH.
Now, THAT is something I would appreciate, if I were looking for a used boat - and even more so if on outdrives.

 

[petem]

As long as they are in the Med, they can hardly be in territorial Swiss waters, I reckon...!
Just wondering, based on what Portofino said, how could a bank consider a CH flagged boat as a collateral worth taking, if anyone could simply de-register it and re-flag it.
Maybe in these cases the bank asks the original docs of the boat and keep them in their files? Just a thought.

Good question. Portofino, how would you register a boat as collateral on a loan in CH?

PS: otoh, keeping a (relatively) big, twin engined diesel boat on a lake, weird as it might sound, is not unusual in CH.
Now, THAT is something I would appreciate, if I were looking for a used boat - and even more so if on outdrives.

Indeed, would be better still if it had autopilot (ironic), desalinator (ironic), A/C, (ironic), genset, new nav gear, and had been dry stored and kept in a dehumidified warehouse for 50 weeks of the year.

 

[petem]

No Pete .
Reg designed to give Swiss citizens afoat - the ability to show they are "neutral" in times of war .-that's all it does .

Understood. Thx.

 

[Portofino]

petem;5526739]Good question. Portofino, how would you register a boat as collateral on a loan in CH?

They have different cantonal laws but generally they are allowed to own only Two properties.
One main resistance + an other -being a either usually a lakeside retreat or mountain chalet .Even if you try to reg /buy one in your kids ( over 18 ) name -that kid has to show independent means to fund it .
Therefore I,am guessing they will remortgage one of there properties or use any other standard collateral if they actually need to borrow.
I suspect most do not borrow so the issue is really academic ?
Historically a deal was brokered with the governing party in Germany during the last war so they had free access via the Rhine (Basel) to the sea .They also had few ocean going vessels on the N European coast .
Flying the Swiss flag was supposed to stop a U boat torpedoing them.
In exchange its said - the Swiss afforded certain banking facilities for the various riches the controlling party of Germany acquired ,a moot point then and still now especially from folks connected with certain newly formed middle easten state .



A lot of Swiss owners would fit into the "playboy" stereotype -boat hardly used -spends it time 10-11 months in a hanger
Mine did .Infact had a 3 - 1/2 year unused -stint in a hanger at one point .
.First owner of my current Itama was Swiss .2001 with MAN 610 hp -then the current engine .In 2003 when the 700 variant came out -he sent it back to Rome for retro fit 700. ,s
I can,t see see these type of buyers messing with loans on boats
2014 the 4 Itama,s Ferretti made all bought by Swiss .
I can,t see any Swiss buying a Riva on finance wether a little lake runabout for the lake summerhouse or a seaworthy Riva44 -52 etc-moored in Cap d Ali ,Porto Vechio .or Portofino , to be used a day boats .

 

[petem]

Thanks Portofino, an interesting post.

In this case, the circumstances around the boat's ownership would suggest to me that there is zero likelihood of the boat being used as collateral for a loan. As ever its a case of proving this to be the case or taking a calculated risk.

 

[Whitelighter]

Thanks Portofino, an interesting post.

In this case, the circumstances around the boat's ownership would suggest to me that there is zero likelihood of the boat being used as collateral for a loan. As ever its a case of proving this to be the case or taking a calculated risk.

Would you have concerns buying a boat on SSR?
Seems the Swiss Refistration is just the same.

If you have a mortgage as a rule they keep the papers.
Get the papers, get a BoS signed confirming lien free and enjoy the boat

 

[MapisM]

Indeed, would be better still if it had autopilot (ironic), desalinator (ironic), A/C, (ironic), genset, new nav gear, and had been dry stored and kept in a dehumidified warehouse for 50 weeks of the year.

Well, I suspect that you might find a better equipped boat on a Swiss lake (on top of the fresh water only bonus) than anywhere else, though I agree that most of those things don't make much sense in internal waters, in theory.
Anyway, fwiw I'd rate a fresh water only boat much higher than one with an a/p or whatever - and I'm saying this having owned several fresh water boats on outdrives, as well as a couple at sea - both of which I sold quickly, phew!
But that's me, of course.

 

[petem]

Would you have concerns buying a boat on SSR?
Seems the Swiss Registration is just the same.

If you have a mortgage as a rule they keep the papers.
Get the papers, get a BoS signed confirming lien free and enjoy the boat

To get finance on a boat in the UK does it have to be Part 1 Reg these days?

 

[Whitelighter]

To get finance on a boat in the UK does it have to be Part 1 Reg these days?

Not if it is going to be kept in the UK, or the advance is less than £25k

If being kept abroad then yes it does.

 

[Hardmy]

Portofino, who told you that we can’t own more than two properties???

Anyway, re the Swiss flag:
They are to day around 40 cargo ships flying the Swiss flag. Some of them, e.g. product tankers and bulkers can be confiscated by the State in case of crisis. Shipping companies (they must be Swiss) in return can benefit from a AAA guarantee from the Swiss state to get finance from banks for a new build. So of course, mortgages on such ships are registered in Basel.

Re mortage on Swiss pleasure boat
You must establish whether the boat is registered in a canton which are competent for inland navigation, or at the Swiss register in Basel in charge for sea going ships:
- Inland boats can get mortgage, and will be registered in the canton where the boat has its homeport. Lake boats are in principle not allowed to navigate on the sea.
- Sea going boats are only registered in Basel and can to my understanding not get finance. I am also under Swiss flag, and there is no single document mentioning that possibility. On the contrary, you must prove to the registrar that you paid the boat in cash. [EDIT, the law dates from 1952 and it does not limit the registration of liens to cargo ships, but again, in practice it probably won't be possible to do so with a pleasure boat]

So in the end, I would be totally relaxed on this one. And if you really want to be 100% sure, call the the person at Basel register who issued the de-registration certificate. They are only a half a dozen people working there, very friendly and straightforward.

If I can help you, don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[MapisM]

Lake boats are in principle not allowed to navigate on the sea.

Do you mean that you can't register a trailerable boat in Luzern, normally using her there, but bringing her to the sea if and when you please?
Just curious...

PS: re. the limit on properties, possibly Portofino had in mind the regulation for non-residents (and/or non-citizens)?

 

[Hardmy]

There is a sort of confirmation of registration for small boats already registered in a canton (such boats are regularly inspected by the authorities of the relevant canton). This confirmation is only valid for inshore boating in foreign waters or up to 5NM from a coast. It is indeed meant for trailer boats and small racing yachts. But as soon it has a "habitable cabin" (don't know from when a day cruiser is considered habitable) it must go through the normal process and need a full entry in the flag register.




Re properties. There are indeed some real estate ownership limitations for non CH-resident/CH-national, but rules are more relaxed in some places. Maybe Portofino meant the referendum providing that municipalities are compelled to keep holiday house/secondary homes below 20% of the whole housing base. This has not been passed as a law yet, maybe in the course of 2016. But e.g. my municipality, has more than 20% of secondary homes and we are all happy that this will change. Secondary homes are most of the year empty and housing is so expensive that many of my generation had to move somewhere else because they couldn't afford a house here.

 

[petem]

Thanks all for the comments above and the advice I've received via PM. I wonder if anyone can help with the following:

For a UK purchaser to buy a Swiss registered boat the boat is technically imported into the EU and VAT is due / paid. The broker has advised that the VAT due is a paltry €3.5k which the vendor will pay. I believe this is based on the 'Blue Book' value of the vessel multiplied by a factor (what this is based on I don't know) multiplied by 21%. The new purchaser would get a nice new VAT paid certificate (is this a Modelo 309?). So my first questions is, does anyone know why the import VAT would be so low?

For a Swiss boat to retain its VAT free status it needs to visit a non EU country every 18 months (or at least leave territorial waters, i.e. go 13 miles offshore). Of course owners of 34ft pleasure craft are unlikely to do this, even less likely will they keep records to prove it. If a UK buyer purchases such a boat then should the authorities discover the boats history then they could levy the back taxes + penalties against the boat (i.e. the new owner). I believe this is limited to five years (can anyone confirm?). Now, this is extremely unlilely to happen however the charge could be significant (i.e. worst case might be VAT levied on the value of the boat when it was 18 months old plus penalties so c. £50k). My second question is, would this put buyers off when I come to re-sell the boat in either Spain or the UK?

 

[Tranona]

VAT on import is based on the "value" of the boat. This may either be the purchase price or a valuation acceptable to customs. There are no hard and fast rules about how this is established, but some will use the "book" value if such a thing exists for the boat in question. Otherwise it is up to negotiation between the importer and customs with the aim obviously for the importer to minimise the value and customs to ensure it is a fair value. The method suggested by the broker seems fair.

You can only use temporary importation into the EU if you are a non EU resident and you have to apply for it on entry. The boat must be registered outside the EU.

So you do not appear to be eligible for temporary import and if you want to use the boat in the EU you will have to import it. You can then resell the boat in the EU as you will have a certificate to say that VAT has been paid.

 

[petem]

VAT on import is based on the "value" of the boat. This may either be the purchase price or a valuation acceptable to customs. There are no hard and fast rules about how this is established, but some will use the "book" value if such a thing exists for the boat in question. Otherwise it is up to negotiation between the importer and customs with the aim obviously for the importer to minimise the value and customs to ensure it is a fair value. The method suggested by the broker seems fair.

I still can't see how the VAT due can be 3.5% of the current value of the boat.

You can only use temporary importation into the EU if you are a non EU resident and you have to apply for it on entry. The boat must be registered outside the EU.

So you do not appear to be eligible for temporary import and if you want to use the boat in the EU you will have to import it. You can then resell the boat in the EU as you will have a certificate to say that VAT has been paid.

I think you're missing the point. This boat has spent the past 10 years under Swiss owned and registered (no VAT ever paid), in Spain (i.e. as a temporary import) with no evidence that it has ever left Spanish waters.

 

[Tranona]

I still can't see how the VAT due can be 3.5% of the current value of the boat.



I think you're missing the point. This boat has spent the past 10 years under Swiss owned and registered (no VAT ever paid), in Spain (i.e. as a temporary import) with no evidence that it has ever left Spanish waters.

Completely irrelevant if you buy it. The current owner can do that as he is non resident. As soon as he sells it then it needs to be imported unless he sells it to another non resident who is eligible for temporary import. If you read HMRC VAT Notice No 8 it explains this in detail (EU rules not just UK).

So, what the broker says is correct. To buy it legally Spanish VAT is due on the current value at the ruling rate.