Swan 46 against a Bene 473 for blue water cruising

[Seven Spades]

You options seem to be at polar opposite and I doubt either is ideal for your purpose. No one has mentioned it but what is the draft of the Swan? My guess is that the draft of the Swan is going to severely limit your options in many places and as this is a fantastic trip do you really want to find that you cannot visit some places?

I agree that with an older boat you might find you are buying a money pit with out of date electronics and it is difficult to "spot" update you will often find that you will need to change the lot to get them to talk to each other.

On your budget I would look for something like a Westerley Ocean, Moody or Najad that has been constantly updated and has a good set of up-to-date navigation equipment.

This is sold but a good example of what you can get for your budget.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1997/Westerly-Ocean-49-2984041/United-Kingdom

 

[Bobc]

It would have been heresy for me to have full jib and double reefed main when close reaching, or jib/asymmetric alone when wind only just astern but sail that way (and other techniques) in a fat sterned boat and all steering and griping issues diminish or disappear as you sail flatter and a lot faster. The autohelm copes and uses so much less juice. But it took me years to finally decide to sail my AWB completely differently to a traditional boat.

That's how I sail my Bavaria 49, and it's very well behaved in pretty much anything. It sails upwind at 7+ knots on just the genoa in 20kts, and tacks on it just fine, all on the autohelm.

 

[dancrane]

Such boats are money pits...So tread carefully as even a £150k boat could easily swallow a third more for a refit.

"ME &MY BOAT" in the November 2013 Yachting Monthly was about a chap who'd done a fine restoration of a 1970s Swan 411.

Looked very beautiful, he'd done good work, but the rejuvenation had cost him £155,000 on top of the £65,000 to buy the boat.

She also looked frightfully small down below, by any standards. And I generally prefer older yachts' interiors.

 

[Tranona]

Yep. Read that. Swans seem to get a strong hold on some people. However they will never be economic ocean voyagers, primarily because they started life as rich boy's racers. So once they have done the circuits and fallen out of fashion they tend to go downhill fast. Many have complicated and expensive deck gear to keep both the crew busy and the oversize rigs up. Down below they are usually stuffed with berths for big crews. So really not a good basis for short handed long distance sailing and living aboard.

Actually looked (for mate) at buying one, attracted by the low prices. Ran away quickly as soon as we saw why they were so cheap!

 

[tcm]

Um, just from the sidelines .. I wouldn’t
- buy a 30 year old boat unless i wanted a project
- go near the tropics with hot teak decks
- sail downwind oceans except in a catamaran

Light or heavy, the monos will flop about a lot from the canaries onwards downwind, unendingly uncomfortable.

Also note that you need massive motoring range - you go rtw near the equator - not much wind except on the way down there canaries, and staying north of 15N to carib, then down to Panama, nice and breezy behind. Other side of Panama ... not much wind.

Over here in the carib, it’s becoming more and more catamarans. Only thing stopping everyone is they ain't cheap. But they are lot nicer to live on than any mono. The monos are for racing, and normal people sleep in a hotel and race during the day, unless you are 18 and crewing for free.

 

[geem]

Um, just from the sidelines .. I wouldn’t
- buy a 30 year old boat unless i wanted a project
- go near the tropics with hot teak decks
- sail downwind oceans except in a catamaran

Light or heavy, the monos will flop about a lot from the canaries onwards downwind, unendingly uncomfortable.

Also note that you need massive motoring range - you go rtw near the equator - not much wind except on the way down there canaries, and staying north of 15N to carib, then down to Panama, nice and breezy behind. Other side of Panama ... not much wind.

Over here in the carib, it’s becoming more and more catamarans. Only thing stopping everyone is they ain't cheap. But they are lot nicer to live on than any mono. The monos are for racing, and normal people sleep in a hotel and race during the day, unless you are 18 and crewing for free.

That is a very warped view of life afloat in the Caribbean,
Most charter boats in the Caribbean are catamarans. You can see the logic. You have teo weeks annual leave. It involves wife and kids and you want lots of space. A cat fits the bill perfectly. If you want to go up wind you engine cos the charter cats simple cant sail to windward in the Caribbean because, heaven forbid, we have waves. The charter cats cant do waves. They just bounce on down wind without the engine to push the nose back in to the wind. We have watched charterers try and give in by putting the engine on.
If you enjoy sailing then imho, monos are the way to go unless you can afford a decent cat like an Outremmer. Most others just dont give the pleasure of sailing. I speak as an ex cat sailer who went back to a deep draft fin and skeg monohull that is a pleasure to live on in the Caribbean. Deep draft in the Caribbean is no disadvantage. The Bahamas would be an issue but they are 1000 miles north!

 

[TQA]

That is a very warped view of life afloat in the Caribbean,
Most charter boats in the Caribbean are catamarans. You can see the logic. You have teo weeks annual leave. It involves wife and kids and you want lots of space. A cat fits the bill perfectly. If you want to go up wind you engine cos the charter cats simple cant sail to windward in the Caribbean because, heaven forbid, we have waves. The charter cats cant do waves. They just bounce on down wind without the engine to push the nose back in to the wind. We have watched charterers try and give in by putting the engine on.
If you enjoy sailing then imho, monos are the way to go unless you can afford a decent cat like an Outremmer. Most others just dont give the pleasure of sailing. I speak as an ex cat sailer who went back to a deep draft fin and skeg monohull that is a pleasure to live on in the Caribbean. Deep draft in the Caribbean is no disadvantage. The Bahamas would be an issue but they are 1000 miles north!

+1

 

[ip485]

I have sailed and raced both. For long distance cruising i have now chosen a 54 island packet.

With two people i am more interested in comfort, ease of handling, robustness, and sailing downwind whenever possible but when necessary being able to plug into it without feeing exhausted after a 24 hour run.

My friend has a similiar sized benny which was has main experience. He was amazed how different the packet felt - as he was kind enough to say opulent comfort in comparison.

Over shorter distances without time to spare i would be very happy with the benny.

 

[gertha]

At the start or this post I specifically asked for people with direct experience on sailing both a modern light weight and a traditional heavyweight.
There are a few with experience on both
Plus many numties with experience on neither and opinions on both.

It would be a massive benefit to the future of all mankind if all people suffering from keyboard diariah stoped spouting unwanted and uneducated missives, thus us small minority could get a word in edge ways.

swan 46 it is.

If any one cares , google gertha 4, we sail and we care.

Simon

 

[RupertW]

At the start or this post I specifically asked for people with direct experience on sailing both a modern light weight and a traditional heavyweight.
There are a few with experience on both
Plus many numties with experience on neither and opinions on both.

It would be a massive benefit to the future of all mankind if all people suffering from keyboard diariah stoped spouting unwanted and uneducated missives, thus us small minority could get a word in edge ways.

swan 46 it is.

If any one cares , google gertha 4, we sail and we care.

Simon

Tranona got it right and you clearly weren't interested in anything but confirmation that the inappropriate boat (for your planned use) was the way to go. I speak as somebody who has sailed and enjoyed a Swan 42 and a Jeanneau 42 a lot recently and loved both but for all the reasons stated would never consider a Swan for long distance sailing and living on board.

 

[bobthecook]

At the start or this post I specifically asked for people with direct experience on sailing both a modern light weight and a traditional heavyweight.
There are a few with experience on both
Plus many numties with experience on neither and opinions on both.

It would be a massive benefit to the future of all mankind if all people suffering from keyboard diariah stoped spouting unwanted and uneducated missives, thus us small minority could get a word in edge ways.

swan 46 it is.

If any one cares , google gertha 4, we sail and we care.

Simon

How rude! any more questions ?

 

[dancrane]

It would be a massive benefit to the future of all mankind if all people suffering from keyboard diariah stoped spouting unwanted and uneducated missives...

Dream on, pal.

Was "uneducated" intended ironically, in the same line where you wrote "diariah stoped"?

Please do post before-and-after photos of the Swan, here. Plus a list of costs, if you dare.

 

[Tin Tin]

It would have been heresy for me to have full jib and double reefed main when close reaching, or jib/asymmetric alone when wind only just astern but sail that way (and other techniques) in a fat sterned boat and all steering and griping issues diminish or disappear as you sail flatter and a lot faster. The autohelm copes and uses so much less juice. But it took me years to finally decide to sail my AWB completely differently to a traditional boat.

We sail an older/heavier boat, and we've been sailing like that for ages.
Are we doing it wrong?

 

[geem]

At the start or this post I specifically asked for people with direct experience on sailing both a modern light weight and a traditional heavyweight.
There are a few with experience on both
Plus many numties with experience on neither and opinions on both.

It would be a massive benefit to the future of all mankind if all people suffering from keyboard diariah stoped spouting unwanted and uneducated missives, thus us small minority could get a word in edge ways.

swan 46 it is.

If any one cares , google gertha 4, we sail and we care.

Simon

Good choice. Enjoy

 

[RupertW]

We sail an older/heavier boat, and we've been sailing like that for ages.
Are we doing it wrong?

If it works for your boat then great but older boats I have sailed have often been very well behaved when heeling under main so allowing me to carry more main longer and reef in the jib along with the main to get maximum performance.

However fat-sterned AWBs, chartered and owned, have horrible rounding up characteristics if sailed that way in gusty weather so I've learned to sail with less (or no) main and more jib to make them sail sweetly. I just had to learn to adapt my techniques to whatever boat I was on - which I should have done far more quickly.

 

[geem]

However fat-sterned AWBs, chartered and owned, have horrible rounding up characteristics if sailed that way in gusty weather so I've learned to sail with less (or no) main and more jib to make them sail sweetly. I just had to learn to adapt my techniques to whatever boat I was on - which I should have done far more quickly.

You do this hard on the wind at 35deg apparent and still sail fast and upright?? What is this magical machine?

 

[doug748]

If it works for your boat then great but older boats I have sailed have often been very well behaved when heeling under main so allowing me to carry more main longer and reef in the jib along with the main to get maximum performance.

However fat-sterned AWBs, chartered and owned, have horrible rounding up characteristics if sailed that way in gusty weather so I've learned to sail with less (or no) main and more jib to make them sail sweetly. I just had to learn to adapt my techniques to whatever boat I was on - which I should have done far more quickly.

I hesitate to get embroiled but now the OP has made his choice..


I was just came across this bit of film this evening and I think he is using your technique:

Strong wind in the Channel, tho the biggest winds had gone.

I would have wanted some main on there - and doubtless would have the boat rounding up.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

She doesn't look very happy about it.

 

[RupertW]

You do this hard on the wind at 35deg apparent and still sail fast and upright?? What is this magical machine?

If you read my original post on this you would see that I said I now double reef the main much earlier and drop it altogether if the wind is slightly aft and strong.

Funnily enough I find a boat that's hard on the wind has no tendency to round up becuase it's already there so I can use the main in a similar way to the way I used to on heavier narrower sterned older boats.

This thread has become a bit waspish after the OP posted his snide response.

 

[geem]

I would suggest you double reef the main when hard on the wind because you have to. Lack of ballast in a modern wide beam boat that relies on form stabilty rather than keel weight stops you carrying any more canvas. When the conditions are bumpy you have little drive to push through the waves. Hence rounding up when you carry more canvas and you get a gust.
In typical F6 conditions we can set main with one reef and staysail and punch into seas will little fuss at 35deg apparent. In a gust not much changes. Lean a little more but track on course usually on autopilot or Windpilot.
Off the wind the weight of the keel is less of an issue except we are currently anchored in Portsmouth, Dominica and the winds are light and we are getting West winds that blow in to the anchorage. Swell is coming in at odd angles and setting boats rolling. The heavy boats roll a lot less than the light boats. Also the speed of the roll on the light boats is about twice as fast as the heavy boats when it happens. Comfort at anchor is important and comes in many forms. It not just about huge cockpits and four double cabins.
For me the OP has made a wise choice.