SW HF and SSB Radio

[GHA]

I have to say I dont think that is an accurate reflection of the history.

W2PA gives a good summary of the early (and more recent) history and of course WiKi is always worth a visit, both of which place the start on a desire for users to communicate, whilst I agree that other interests have spun off, including, logically, improving the equipment, but for the ovbvious reasons of making communincation better. If people didnt wish to communicate in all the forms then ham wouldnt exist. If ham operators didnt communicate with each other today ham would also not exist. I suspect ham will need to evolve and I think on this one the Americans have already a much better approach to licensing these bands that we have here.

From wiki >
Amateur radio, also known as ham radio, is the use of radio frequency spectrum for purposes of non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radiosport, contesting, and emergency communication.

My bold, which you want to get rid of. That's all possible at the moment because hams are allowed to transmit on any old piece of wire and some electricity as long as they don't make a mess of the airwaves. And having a high level of technical knowledge they invariably do, or the community will know and make noise. Or ofcom will find you and fine you. It works. Very well. You want to ditch all that which would need type approved radios like VHFs that numties couldn't make a nuisance with.
Ain't going to happen, thankfully, would kill it instantly.

Which ham licence do you have??

Offshore sailors need the advance license to broadcast beyond the low water line, is that what you have?

 

[Martin_J]

And in addition to that, these HF rigs have the ability to not only affect other equipment on your own boat but that of others many 1000s miles away if incorrectly set up ( both in terms of the the rig itself and of any ancilliary equipment such as antennas, feed lines, chokes etc. )

They also have the ability to transmit on frequencies that are not permitted within the amateur bandplan.

As GHA says, it's a lot more than just type approval of the rig that could let you play without so much thought for frequencies. I guess that's what the LRC is for.

PS I'd love to find time for a chat on air. I was on board last lockdown but this time I'm ashore. I've brought a spare 706mkiig with me from the boat and some antenna wire.. just need time to make up a balun and maybe try to find the Digimaster.. M0MMT.

 

[Martin_J]

Apologies to Ship's Cat
Back to the original question. I'm hoping to find time in this lockdown to achieve the same thing and decode some weatherfax. Work is currently getting in the way though.
Let us know if you do have any success and I'll do likewise.

 

[Skylark]

.Mid afternoon, 40m band, UK to Portugal, looks possible according to this site

HF Propagation Predictions - ITURHFProp: Area Coverage

I haven't ventured into my loft as yet. I have a Trio 120V, low power set, which I'd be happy to connect to an unused for 30 years, home made G5RV aerial. I also have a high power TS830S set which I'd be less willing to try. I have the Trio ATU and a commercially made low pass filter so, hopefully, shouldn't annoy the neighbours too much

Who is going try to hook-up? Call signs? Mine is G4PYH

 

[ip485]

Amateur radio, also known as ham radio, is the use of radio frequency spectrum for purposes of non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radiosport, contesting, and emergency communication.

My bold, which you want to get rid of. That's all possible at the moment because hams are allowed to transmit on any old piece of wire and some electricity as long as they don't make a mess of the airwaves. And having a high level of technical knowledge they invariably do, or the community will know and make noise. Or ofcom will find you and fine you. It works. Very well. You want to ditch all that which would need type approved radios like VHFs that numties couldn't make a nuisance with.
Ain't going to happen, thankfully, would kill it instantly.

I am not being awkward, just expressing a point of view.

To be fair the first word is the one you have not boldened, and is the key. I am simply making the point that numerous sources recognise the primary purpose of the ham bands is to communicate, and I agree there are ancillary interests, but they all stem from communication, if you didnt communicate ham wouldnt exist. I think it is also correct to say that its early beginnings indeed stem from communication with mariners, and, still to this day the marine nets are incredibly popular in some parts of the world as a means of communication although sadly sat phones are gradually taking over.

I am also not advocating the removal of licensing, which I believe is a good thing. I am sure you are aware of the American licensing regime, and simply observing as was the case here previoulsy, the testing regime has become unnecessarily complex for new ham operators, especially those who just wish to communicate - I mean come on three tests with independent invigiliation at the final level is over kill, especially as grandfathering is accepted for those who have allowed their licence to lapse and probably would not pass the test these days.

As to it aint going to happen, the reality is nothing is for ever. If you make simple things to difficult then I suspect in time fewer young people wish to take part and it eithe dies a slow death or changes. The former would be a great shame, which is why I simply make the obseravation that I think the regulations should be reviewed from time to time and I still believe in the UK they are unnecessarily onerous, whilst much less so in other parts of the world. In short totally unnecessary gold plating and from one who has held a full licence for over 20 years so I am afraid I am one of the old farts!

 

[GHA]

If you make simple things to difficult then I suspect in time fewer young people wish to take part and it eithe dies a slow death or changes.

Except that isn't happening. The ham bands are very much alive and well, doing my exams a few years ago large percentage were pretty young from teens upwards. And very keen to learn, the hobby is not dying. Stop worrying! All is well, no need for any fiddling!
And tbh there isn't actually a lot of 'comms' going on, high percentage of traffic is contests & people racking up contacts on their logbook & digital qsl cards. Digital is very popular, psk31 usually crammed and moonbounce, amateur satellite links, all busy.

 

[dolabriform]

I got my foundation license this year, and can confirm what GHA has said about not a lot of comms going on!

My main reason was a pathway to using it whilst sailing offshore, but I will probably end up going the LRC route after all. The jump from Foundation to Full requires a lot of time, and for the purposes of being able to communicate whilst at sea is beyond what I need.

Mine, and a lot of my friends primary interest is communication, and not the hobby side of HAM. I am interested in both, but not to where I can afford the time required.

 

[ip485]

Except that isn't happening. The ham bands are very much alive and well, doing my exams a few years ago large percentage were pretty young from teens upwards. And very keen to learn, the hobby is not dying. Stop worrying! All is well, no need for any fiddling!
And tbh there isn't actually a lot of 'comms' going on, high percentage of traffic is contests & people racking up contacts on their logbook & digital qsl cards. Digital is very popular, psk31 usually crammed and moonbounce, amateur satellite links, all busy.

I wish that were true. However the current position is that about 700 people of those licensed continue with the hobby for any length of time and around a 1,000 people drop out due to passing on each year, so there is an overall net loss to the hobby. It doesnt worry me at all, but I do think the trends are interesting and it is no good ignoring these trends however well (or badly) your local club seems to be doing. It is also true that ham is being used in many other ways, but comms is comms, it still all amounts to a means of communication.

I got my foundation license this year, and can confirm what GHA has said about not a lot of comms going on!

My main reason was a pathway to using it whilst sailing offshore, but I will probably end up going the LRC route after all. The jump from Foundation to Full requires a lot of time, and for the purposes of being able to communicate whilst at sea is beyond what I need.

Mine, and a lot of my friends primary interest is communication, and not the hobby side of HAM. I am interested in both, but not to where I can afford the time required.

Yes, I think this sums up my own feelings very well. There are many who share a similiar interest especially in the blue water sailing community. They have absolutely no interest in the other stuff, and, on the whole, once their rig is set up, often professionally installed, they have zero interest in doing anything different. You are correct the jump does require a great deal of time and effort many cant afford, and for many, is also irrelevant, and therefore sadly puts many off taking it any further, which is shame. I know of quite a few blue water cruisers who have an American licence for this reason or, no licence at all.

As I said earlier it should not be forgotten that the primary purpose of any radio is to communicate, and it is especially important that we sailors are able to communicate, and often over distance far further than VHF permitts. In Europe I think it is entirely fair to say the ham "marine network" is just about dead, whereas it was in the past reasonably active, which is also exactly my point. As dedicated marine networks die, either the ham radios are ditched, or the hams frequencies become more popular, but in fact they havent, it is the first because of the licensing obstacles (well in the UK and Europe at any rate).

I have Fleetbroad band which is brilliant, on demand streaming wifi and of course comms any where in the world, but it is expensive and is point to point so misses out on the benefits of the ham and marine nets, and the cost is clearly prohibitive for many. However this is the direction most are taking - have a look at the data from the last Atlantic crossing rallies and see how many carried SSB compared with even ten years ago.

Any one passionate about the ham bands should, in my view, want to see them used for the purposes orginally intended and encourage blue water use in a legal and responsible way. Indeed how much more interesting to be communicating with someone on board a yacht in the middle of the Pacific, or, as I have especially enjoyed, exchanging information on one of the WI's nets with many others.

I fly (not professionally) and am licensed by the CAA for both short range and HF and inevitably I also hold a marine VHF licence and ham. Every one has its own test of varying degrees of difficulty and even though I can communicate with Oceanic as well as Heathrow radar, approach, director and ground and have had to prove I have Level 6 English proficiency, never mind with an instrument rating that I can fly an approach to minimium using radio navigation aids, none of this matters one wit to any of the other radio licences.

GHA - in short I have no axe to grind with you, but I would respectfully suggest you are burying your head in the sand and it is shown to be the case with respect to many hobbies more regulation and entry obstacles in the end simply come back to bite, and, if nothing else it doesnt take long before numbers are significantly on the decline and the regulator will look to impose changes. That may not happen in the short term, but as sure as Sat comms will become cheaper, the drift away will certainly continue in so far as is relevant to this partiuclar forum and the interests of yachties.

 

[GHA]

As I said earlier it should not be forgotten that the primary purpose of any radio is to communicate,

So far off the mark imho, that's like saying a pristine sixties Jag is only for getting to the shops. For the hams the message isn't the thing, want to pass information then email or phone, bouncing a low power radio signal off the moon isn't done primarily to exchange information any more than a vintage Jag exists primarily to go somewhere, it's done to be able to pass information .
Though less hands on these days, sdr making major inroads but building antennas is still very popular if you listen to the airwaves.

And looks set to stay thankfully despite your doom and gloom.
Though worth noting though it doesn't exist to help out ocean going yachties who are on the edge of the regulations and not really playing to the spirit of ham, but are thankfully tolerated.

Ironically seeing an upturn in the current situation -
Coronavirus: How amateur radio is connecting people during lockdown

 

[ip485]

So far off the mark imho, that's like saying a pristine sixties Jag is only for getting to the shops. For the hams the message isn't the thing, want to pass information then email or phone, bouncing a low power radio signal off the moon isn't done primarily to exchange information any more than a vintage Jag exists primarily to go somewhere, it's done to be able to pass information .
Though less hands on these days, sdr making major inroads but building antennas is still very popular if you listen to the airwaves.

And looks set to stay thankfully despite your doom and gloom.
Though worth noting though it doesn't exist to help out ocean going yachties who are on the edge of the regulations and not really playing to the spirit of ham, but are thankfully tolerated.

Ironically seeing an upturn in the current situation -
Coronavirus: How amateur radio is connecting people during lockdown

You know I didnt say what you are suggesting. I made it very clear that ham operators can happily play with their kit to their hearts content if that is their wish. The point was some are interested in doing so, and some arent. In the UK some in the ham fraternity are very clique and have a very opinionated view they have some special and secret skill, which infact they dont.

For me as I said earlier, absolutely no doom and gloom, I am just portraying the facts. Any hobby that is suffering a loss of numbers of around 1/3 a year is not prospering, it is that simple.

As to helping ocean going yachties ham hobbyiest have no God given right to the airways when I last checked, and the spirit of the ham operator is self imposed, no more, no less, again it is that simple.

I do not dispute that the ham hobbyiest will continue to seek to protect the hobby in the way they do, I am simply giving an alternative view that this may be rather a reflection that it is stuck in the dark ages before radio operators could purchase rigs, aerials and aerial tuners that just work.

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree on this one. I respect your view, but I am afraid I disagree with it, but thank you for a most interesting discussion.

 

[Ship'sCat]

Apologies to Ship's Cat
Back to the original question. I'm hoping to find time in this lockdown to achieve the same thing and decode some weatherfax. Work is currently getting in the way though.
Let us know if you do have any success and I'll do likewise.

Martin J - Thanks and will let you know how it goes.

 

[Ship'sCat]

Some more radio tech things I request advice on from anyone please.... a) weatherfax software vendors all seem to say that you need a radio which can receive USB signals. b) the portable SW radio I am playing around with has an SSB switch but nothing to specifically select USB reception. c) I understand that the convention for transmitting SSB signals that those in a frequency higher than 9Mhz are in Upper Side Band anyway.
Therefore taking into account the above, I should be trying to get results from those weather fax stations transmitting higher than 9 Mhz. Is this tue?

 

[dolabriform]

Some more radio tech things I request advice on from anyone please.... a) weatherfax software vendors all seem to say that you need a radio which can receive USB signals. b) the portable SW radio I am playing around with has an SSB switch but nothing to specifically select USB reception. c) I understand that the convention for transmitting SSB signals that those in a frequency higher than 9Mhz are in Upper Side Band anyway.
Therefore taking into account the above, I should be trying to get results from those weather fax stations transmitting higher than 9 Mhz. Is this tue?

I'm glad you asked this as it's something I'e been trying to find out !

As GHA suggested, try and tune into the RTTY signal on 10.1Mhz, you should be able to hear this even if you can't decode it. That will indicate that you are working USB

 

[Roberto]

Some more radio tech things I request advice on from anyone please.... a) weatherfax software vendors all seem to say that you need a radio which can receive USB signals. b) the portable SW radio I am playing around with has an SSB switch but nothing to specifically select USB reception. c) I understand that the convention for transmitting SSB signals that those in a frequency higher than 9Mhz are in Upper Side Band anyway.
Therefore taking into account the above, I should be trying to get results from those weather fax stations transmitting higher than 9 Mhz. Is this tue?

You'll be fine with the simple "SSB" button. Just check the radio tuning interval, if it is wide (say 1kHz) then the radio must have a "Fine tune" command or it will be too coarse and you might not getting much.

 

[Skylark]

AM, amplitude modulation, transmits a carrier wave and two, mirror image, side bands.

SSB ( probably more correctly known as single side band, suppressed carrier) is used to effectively increase output power.

Within an AM signal, 50% of the power goes into making a carrier wave and 25% in each of the two side bands.

If a radio receiver can re-insert a carrier wave and if the transmitter can eliminate one of the side bands, the effective power out of a SSB signal is 4x greater than an AM signal.

Don’t remember the frequency of change but 7MHz and lower is LSB and 14MHz and higher is USB.

I’ve no idea how commercial radio receivers deal with this but amateur radio sets are selectable.

Also out of interest, if the receiver has a BFO (beat frequency oscillator) this is set to the carrier wave frequency but offset by an audio frequency such that more code can be resolved.

 

[Ship'sCat]

You'll be fine with the simple "SSB" button. Just check the radio tuning interval, if it is wide (say 1kHz) then the radio must have a "Fine tune" command or it will be too coarse and you might not getting much.

This radio tunes in 1kHz increments only, although it has a knob marked "clarity" which I am supposed to use to improve reception of a particular station as well. Shall I persevere with this set or will I need to try another?

 

[Roberto]

This radio tunes in 1kHz increments only, although it has a knob marked "clarity" which I am supposed to use to improve reception of a particular station as well. Shall I persevere with this set or will I need to try another?

AS GHA suggested above, try and see if you receive anything around 7646, 10100 or 11039 kHz, putting the dial around those values +-1 or 2kHz up and down, then play with your "Clarity" knob. It's a strong German station transmitting RTTY (among other things, weather info as well). I am locked down in Central Paris (very, very "noisy" in terms of radio reception), I can receive that signal with a 1kHz-interval pocket radio receiver just with its tiny steel telescopic antenna.
On Youtube you may find examples of what the sound is like, what type of sound you should hear, RTTY is a bit bleeebleeeblebleblebleeeblee

 

[john_morris_uk]

The tuning signal of RTTY is ryryryry.... because it’s more or less equal periods of the frequency shift keying that’s commonly used on HF. SSB sets produce FSK by injecting two tones into the Audio input

 

[Daverw]

You could get a HF HAM radio, not plug the mic in so not transmit and use it as a receiver only, you then get all the functions you would need

 

[Ship'sCat]

AS GHA suggested above, try and see if you receive anything around 7646, 10100 or 11039 kHz, putting the dial around those values +-1 or 2kHz up and down, then play with your "Clarity" knob. It's a strong German station transmitting RTTY (among other things, weather info as well). I am locked down in Central Paris (very, very "noisy" in terms of radio reception), I can receive that signal with a 1kHz-interval pocket radio receiver just with its tiny steel telescopic antenna.
On Youtube you may find examples of what the sound is like, what type of sound you should hear, RTTY is a bit bleeebleeeblebleblebleeeblee

This evening I went around all the frequencies I have noted for marine weather fax and couldn't detect anything. I tried 10100 but heard nothing until I adjusted to 10115 when I got a signal more like a rapid morse code rather than warbling. Tomorrow I might make a wire antenna slung in the trees as per youtube demo and see if it helps - the rest of the set works fine in FM, LW MW and perhaps its because I am in a built up area.