Suspect possible dodgy gearbox / transmission HBW100

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icarusbop

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Hello:

I have finally fixed my perkins 4108 engine and it now runs quite smooth.
Attached to the engine is a HBW100 gearbox, which I now suspect to be dodgy.
The gear lever has three positions, F, neutral (N) and R- the lever is being correctly actuated by the helm control.

It seems when shifting to R from N it works OK, then back to N is OK.
Shifting from N to F however does not always work - sometimes it takes quite a lot actuations from N to F and back again to get into F gear.
Now we are F gear, shifting to N does not work - it stays in F!
If we then went into R ( by mistake because the control was stiff) - there is a horrid schreeching noise and the engine stalls out - engaged in R and F at the same time??? Horrid noise is slipping clutch?

Getting back into N with the engine stopped in easier than with it ticking over, but still not simple - we have to jiggle to control lever and test the prop shaft by hand to ensure we are actually in N.

I suspect the F clutch is not working - is this a common issue? Has anyone had a similar issue and can advise how easy it is to fix

Thanks:

Ian
 
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icarusbop said:
Hello:

I suspect the F clutch is not working - is this a common issue? Has anyone had a similar issue and can advise how easy it is to fix

Thanks:

Ian
Click to expand...

Hi Ian

What you describe is exactly the same as my gearbox Hurth 100 R2 box was and my mates Hurth gearbox, you can play with yours all day long but it sounds the same problem as we both had and I am afraid it's a new box AND possibly a new drive plate.

We investigated and it's not a big differance in a repair cost to buying a new gearbox, however you may or may not know that Hurth was taken over by ZF Gears.



The Hurth 100 gearbox is replaced with an almost identical box called the ZF10M-2R and they are about £700 new (got mine from ASAP Supplies), BUT, there is a slight differance in the gear ratio and I now run on less revs than the old Hurth box, however it fits exactly

The other alternative is to fit a reconditioned gearbox and there are some Hurths around, however you will find you will only save about a £100.

The other advise is (and more expense) if you take the gearbox out then you should at least take the 'thrust plate' or sometimes known as 'drive or damper plate' out because if thats the problem you will have to take everything apart again to replace it.

There are two types of drive plate and you will find there will be a number on yours, I got a new one from R & D http://www.randdmarine.com/mdamper.asp they actualy make them and very helpfull people on the phone or e-mail.

It's not rocket science getting the gearbox out or the drive plate, BUT, don't loose any bolts etc.

Mike

My thruster plate
View attachment 28265

My mates thruster plate
View attachment 28264
 
Thanks for the advice - I was suspecting a probable new gearbox anyway, I've found one on eBay for £550.
Please can you give me more details about the thruster plate, I suspect this is the bit that looks like a clutch plate from a car (my knowledge of boats is still on a steep learning curve) - does it work similar to a car clutch or in a completely different manner?
If it works like a car clutch - how would this failing cause my issue? - I thought I would simply get no drive or high revs and very slow drive - like a slipping clutch.
I don't doubt your suggestion - as stated, I'm trying to learn so I can understand more.

Thanks
 
icarusbop said:
Hello:

I have finally fixed my perkins 4108 engine and it now runs quite smooth.
Attached to the engine is a HBW100 gearbox, which I now suspect to be dodgy.
The gear lever has three positions, F, neutral (N) and R- the lever is being correctly actuated by the helm control.

It seems when shifting to R from N it works OK, then back to N is OK.
Shifting from N to F however does not always work - sometimes it takes quite a lot actuations from N to F and back again to get into F gear.
Now we are F gear, shifting to N does not work - it stays in F!
If we then went into R ( by mistake because the control was stiff) - there is a horrid schreeching noise and the engine stalls out - engaged in R and F at the same time??? Horrid noise is slipping clutch?

Getting back into N with the engine stopped in easier than with it ticking over, but still not simple - we have to jiggle to control lever and test the prop shaft by hand to ensure we are actually in N.

I suspect the F clutch is not working - is this a common issue? Has anyone had a similar issue and can advise how easy it is to fix

Thanks:

Ian
Click to expand...

I am removing a fully working HBW100 (ZF10m) from my 4108 (replacing with a PRM150 hydraulic box) if you decide you need to fit a replacement...
 
Hi Ian
Mike has beat me to the reply:)as usual.your engine running rough may have been the last straw.The small hurths like smooth power delivery as this helps to keep the there friction plates intact.The thrust plate is like a damper between the engine and the gearbox and only has a certain life as anything.Not a hard job to change out and in a couple of hours even with my ltd skills.
 
ianj99 said:
I am removing a fully working HBW100 (ZF10m) from my 4108 (replacing with a PRM150 hydraulic box) if you decide you need to fit a replacement...
Click to expand...

This is interesting news: are you willing to sell your Hurth on? - can you advice how many hours it has been used for? Do you have an idea of the kind of price you might be willing to accept?
 
Presumably the damper plate takes some of te 'snatch' out when the gear is engaged, by utilising the springs to soften the engagement.
So checking the plate is as simple as looking and making sure the springs are not broken or is it more complicated than that?
 
The damper plate is there to eliminate gear backlash with the little springs taking up some of the thrust when gears are engaged.
There, the similarity with a car set-up ends as obviously there is no clutch plate or thrust bearing.
Last season I thought I had lost my gearbox when a "bag of spanners" noise was followed by an intermittent loss of drive in forward. After disconnecting the morse control I could get drive again, but it only lasted for a few minutes, then both F and R had gone.
Once in a berth I spit the engine and gearbox and found most of the springs from the damper plate, broken in the bottom of the bell housing.
You may be lucky. I would split the gearbox from the egine before committing to buy a new gearbox.
 
Everyone I have spoken too has said that having a hurth/zf box refurbished had resulted in a second visit to the engineers in a relatively short time.

My box ( zf10 on a perkins 4108 ) started playing up last season and i purchased a new one. Have not fitted it yet, job for may!
 
Hello:

I removed the gearbox this past weekend - it was quite a simple job: disconnect the prop (4 bolts), remove 6 bolts from Gear mount plate and out it pops.
The drive plate looks quite new - I suspect it has been replaced in the past couple of years, the springs are still shiny and springy.
This leaves the gearbox, the gear selector is a bit stiff even when not under load from the engine, and sometimes it seems to stick in one gear when rotating by hand.

I have purchase a new unit (second hand, but unused) from an eBay seller for £320. I will wait for it to arrive and refit, then repoart back on my progress.
 
My new gearbox arrived over the weekend. It is a ZF version, the later model with the slightly different gear ratios than the original Hurth.
It fits to the engine and drive plate perfectly and only took around an hour to fit and fill with ATF.
however: I have discovered the ZF box is 1cm shorter than the old Hurth - so now my prop doesn't reach - there is a 1cm gap between the gearbox output and the prop coupling flange.
My prop is connected to the gearbox via a CVA joint which is attached to the hull structure, so I can't just slide the prop in a bit to fill the gap.
Does anyone have any ideas on the best way to fill this errant space in my drive system?
 
icarusbop said:
My new gearbox arrived over the weekend. It is a ZF version, the later model with the slightly different gear ratios than the original Hurth.
It fits to the engine and drive plate perfectly and only took around an hour to fit and fill with ATF.
however: I have discovered the ZF box is 1cm shorter than the old Hurth - so now my prop doesn't reach - there is a 1cm gap between the gearbox output and the prop coupling flange.
My prop is connected to the gearbox via a CVA joint which is attached to the hull structure, so I can't just slide the prop in a bit to fill the gap.
Does anyone have any ideas on the best way to fill this errant space in my drive system?
Click to expand...

Here is an ebay link to a spacer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Propeller...tEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item4a9dd050dc

I am also replacing a Hurth 100 with a new Zf 10m. From the technical drawings of both gearboxes I was expecting the ZF to be 5mm longer!
 
Thanks fro the advice.

I've had a look at prop protector and the ebay link, they both look like the right unit, but I do think they a are a little pricey for what you get.
Still, that's marine spares for you!
Before I buy I've made an enquiry about this unit on eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370485057804
It's a 10mm spacer for a land rover, I've asked for the dimensions to see if it will fit. It is half the price of the Hurth one but looks very similar.
I'll let you know how I go on with it.
 
icarusbop said:
Thanks fro the advice.

I've had a look at prop protector and the ebay link, they both look like the right unit, but I do think they a are a little pricey for what you get.
Still, that's marine spares for you!
Before I buy I've made an enquiry about this unit on eBay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370485057804
It's a 10mm spacer for a land rover, I've asked for the dimensions to see if it will fit. It is half the price of the Hurth one but looks very similar.
I'll let you know how I go on with it.
Click to expand...

That spacer is too small in diameter. It is 2" look at the company card in the photo for scale. The Hurth spacer is 4".
 
Slipstream: Good detective work - I thought it was an A5 flyer, not a business card.
To let you know - I got the information from them it is 4.5cm - nearly 2", so good work on the detective side, but it looks like I am stuck paying over the odds for a large aluminium washer!
 
So I ordered the official spacer from eBay, it arrived yesterday and I excitedly took it to my lady today after work to fit it and finally couple my prop back onto the engine....
It doesn't fit!
Now I have the correct length with the new spacer, but the prop is 10mm lower than the output flange from the gearbox!
The CV joint will extend over the gap if I pull it a bit, but the CV instructions say this leeway is not to allow for bad fitting, but to allow the engine to vibrate in relation to the CV joint.
I checked the specs of the original Hurth100 versus the ZF10M - the vertical spacing between the input drive and the output flange is identical on both (62.0mm), so the height difference cannot be due to the difference in gearbox model.
This leaves me with one conclusion - the previous fitting was already not vertically aligned and the previous owner simply stretched the CV joint over the gap.
The question now is - should I do the same?
 
earlybird said:
Do the engine mounts have any adjustment to enable lowering the engine a few mm?
Click to expand...

I've tried the engine mounts - there is space to lower the engine on the mounts but they are pretty seized up with years of hammerite paint, and maybe other stuff. I can't get the nuts to move.
I think I'd need to cut off the top nut, jack the engine up off the mounts, remove the mounts, remove the bottom nut then re-run the thread with a new die. supply new nuts then refit.
 
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